Text 26964, 303 rader
Skriven 2012-03-18 06:46:27 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
  Kommentar till text 26918 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Nicholas Kill's name
============================
18 Mar 12 09:16, Robert Bashe wrote to Roy Witt:

 RW>>>> I used what is called a Check 21, "American Electronic Transfer"
 RW>>>> to pay for an item I wanted for my race car...

 RB>>> And what did you pay for this service?

 RW>> Don't remember the exact amount. No more than $5...

 RB> For a domestic transfer. And, as you describe, you had to go to the
 RB> bank for that.

I could have done it by accessing my account online, but the preferred
method of payment was called for by the salesman.

 RB> I do stuff like that here from my computer desk and pay nothing.

As would be the case if I wanted to take a chance on someone pilfering my
account # and password.

 RB>>> The direct account transfers Ward refers to are standard in Europe,

 RW>> As they are here.

 RB> That's simply wrong, Roy. You apparently aren't familiar with the
 RB> situation in Europe, since otherwise you'd never make such a claim.

I make the claim because direct transfers can and are done online and I
suspect that many US citizens do it everyday. That it isn't my preference
is not the point of contention.

 RB>>> and cost $0.00.

 RW>> As they do here. I used to pay my bills by instant transfer...

 RB> Still not the same.

BS - paying online has been around for at least a decade. The last 7 of
which I've had online use here.

 RB> I know that you can pay bills by direct account transfer to _some_
 RB> organizations (utilities and the government, for example), but just
 RB> try to send funds to the account of a private person at a bank
 RB> different from your own, in another state.

Ummmm. Each and every entity I have to pay for their service, except the
local power utility, have their accounting offices located out of state.

Dishnet and my mortgage holder are located in Georgia, AT&T is located in
Illinois, my cell phone provider is in Oregon, etc..

I just checked online at Dishnet and my banking facility and the payment
that I mailed was received and the amount of that payment were both made
on the same day. i.e. check received, check digitized and sent
electronically to my bank, bank payment deducted from my account and
transfered to the recipient's bank account.

Had I made that payment by transferring the amount to pay from my account
to theirs while sitting at my computer, it would only have eliminated the
3 day wait and the 'digizing of the check' time.

 RB> And I don't mean a "wire transfer", just an Internet payment directly
 RB> from your account to the other one.

That's what the Check 21 Act does here. There is no wire transfer, unless
you mean that the payment was transferred by telephone. Which it isn't.

 RB> In fact, I was originally quite confused the first time I wanted to
 RB> make an "Internet payment" to someone when the payment form requested
 RB> a city and street address instead of an account number and the bank
 RB> ID code.

We're not asked for any more info but the recipient's bank routing number
and their account number. 'routing number' is merely the code the banks
use to identify the bank and of course the account to transfer the payment
to.

 RB> It took a while before I realized that the so-called "Internet
 RB> payment" was nothing more than having the bank send a check
 RB> through the mail to the recipient and had nothing to do with direct
 RB> account tranfer.

That doesn't happen here. i.e my SS payment is transferred from the US
Treasury by instant transfer. I only see it when it is credited to my
account on the day they say it will be sent. I don't receive a check in
the mail.

 RW>> Checks aren't a problem here because the Check 21 Act allows the
 RW>> recipient to turn the paper into an instant cash trensfer, account
 RW>> to account.

 RB> Still not comparable.

Check 21 isn't meant to 'route around the bastard' it's meant to make a
direct payment upon receipt of a paper check. No more, no less.

 RB>  Your recipient still has to _receive_ the check (paper). And that
 RB> means you either have to bring it yourself, or send it through the
 RB> mail.

Duh!

 RB> There is no "account to account" transfer involved.

On the contrary. Goto Wiki and do a 'Check 21 Act' search, then re-read
the facts as I've presented them here.

 RB> All that happens is that the step of sending the paper check back to
 RB> your bank for clearing has been streamlined by scanning the check and
 RB> sending the image back instead of the paper.

And don't forget that the payment by check is digitized, sent to the bank
and get they get back an instant transfer from my account to their
account. All in less than a minute, I'll bet.

 RW>> The problem arrises when the check (supposedly) doesn't arrive on
 RW>> the payment 'due date' and they begin to panic and start calling you
 RW>> to make a credit card payment. I refuse to give them the
 RW>> dis-satisfaction of saying 'the checks in the mail' and block their
 RW>> number from my phone.

 RB> What should I say? All this shows for me is the lack of reliability
 RB> and time uncertainty involved in sending paper checks back and forth
 RB> across the country.

That's the whole idea...1st of month - 'hey, this guy's payment is due
today', wonder, wonder, wonder for three days, then - 'hey that guys
payment showed up today in the form of a paper check' - we can now credit
his account and "finally" get our money' - 'yeah, but it arrived before
the "grace" period ended, so we can't charge him that $20 late fee' - 'boo
hoo'...

 RB> I often wonder if the check system is at least indirectly intended as
 RB> a subsidy for the US Postal Service, since it amounts to that.

The PO service is also used as an indirect payment delay mechanism, thus a
very good service. Now if the utilties would allow a 44 cent discount
from the billing bottom line, that would be worth the hassle of allowing
them to make automatic payment.

 RW>> They usually give up when the check arrives...

 RB> All of this _so_ unnecessary if only direct account transfers were
 RB> possible in the States.

Like I said, it's an indirect way of delaying a payment. If I wanted to
allow a direct transfer 'from account to account', I'd give them that
permission on my terms and my terms only. That they expect the payment
transfer to take place on the 1st isn't what I want.

 RB> Naturally with the corresponding legislation (total transfer time not
 RB> to exceed three days, preferably one day).

We don't need that kind of legislation. What we need is an agreement
between payor and payee to take their payment when it is offered, not when
they want it. i.e. my auto insurance is paid on the 15th of the month
because we (Texas Farm Bureau agent and I) made arrangements to make that
payment on that day. This has been the case with TFB for the last 5 years.

 RB>>> Many banks charge nothing for setting up an account, and no mothly
 RB>>> charge or minimum balance. After you've been a customer for a while
 RB>>> - one to two years - you generally get "overdraft privileges" (also
 RB>>> without charge and often even without specifically requesting them)

 RW>> I had all of that on the first day I opened my accounts. My
 RW>> overdraft account is a savings account...

 RB> Which is not necessary here.

Then you're losing money. I make a pittance in % per month in interest on
that account. Granted, it is way lower than I'd like it to be, but that is
only because of the economic times we're in. It doesn't cost me a cent to
keep it as an overdraft account, unless I use it for that.

 RB> You simply are allowed to overdraw your account, and are charged
 RB> interest on the overdraft as long as the account is overdrawn (but
 RB> you only pay interest on the actual amount of the overdraft, not a
 RB> set fee for any overdraft, regardless of how small).

But you're still paying an overdraft fee, where my system is earning
interest instead of paying fees.

 RB>>> amounting to 2.5 times the monthly deposits into your account.

 RW>> That small, eh...

 RB> Not so snooty, please. As mentioned, we don't have to have savings
 RB> accounts or anything else here to overdraw a regular account.

LOL! (laughing at your accounting ability, or lack thereof). Why would you
want to spend your money on an overdraft account fee when you could be
making money?

 RB> If you do, you can naturally deposit any amount of money you want to
 RB> "overdraw" it - but then we're not talking about the same thing.

Right.

 RB> When I write "overdraft", that means your regular account is in the
 RB> minus range, and you have no other account.

And that would cost you interest on money that you have now borrowed to
pay for your overdraft. Granted, something that would only occur if you
spent more than you have. Since I already have and it's earning money at
the same time, there is no such thing as an overdraft.

 RB>  There is no such thing as an "overdraft fee" here, you just pay
 RB> interest on the amount of the overdraft until your account balance is
 RB> EUR 0.00.

What a horrible idea. Granted, the banks here charge you more for an
overdraft, but that's merely an incentive for you to put some money in the
bank and also to punish you for over drawing your account. My way is
better...

 WD>>>>> The European banking system is way better and customer friendly
 WD>>>>> than in North America.

 RW>>>> LOL! BS!

 RB>>> He didn't mean that the bank personnel all smile at you and tell
 RB>>> you how much they like you at every opportunity - my experience
 RB>>> with American banks -

 RW>> He may have experienced American banks, but not as an American
 RW>> citizen. He experienced them as a foriegner, just like you did.

 RB> Which has what to do with efficiency, service and fees?

Learn the real American banking system (not Dossche BS) and you'd know
already.

 RB>>> but that the banks are efficient and fast, and make very few
 RB>>> mistakes,

 RW>> I don't find any mistakes in our banking system here.

 RB> You're lucky in that case, or have a particularly good bank, or have
 RB> relatively simple finances.

I have three different accounts there, plus two stock broker accounts and
then there's Nancy's income and expense accounts. We're all human and even
I make accounting mistakes. So, when I find one at a banking institution,
I work to have it corrected or know the reason why. In turn, they've
always done the same for me.

 RW>> Your experience is flawed, expecting an American bank to do business
 RW>> your way.

 RB> Oh, I don't. But I would be happy if the system were more efficient
 RB> and less expensive.

It's very efficient as it is setup and I don't see any comparison in 'less
expensive' yet.

 RB>>> After experiencing both systems, I have to agree with Ward.

 RW>> I wouldn't expect anything less, since neither of you have American
 RW>> citizen written on your forehead in black charcoal.

 RB> No you think American banks provide inferior service and charge
 RB> higher fees to foreigners than to American citizens? That's a
 RB> statement I personally wouldn't have made.

I think you guys abuse the system and complain about it because you don't
have the first clue in how it works.

 RB> I can understand that you're happier with the system you grew up
 RB> with.

I grew up at the same time you did and FYI, the banking system isn't the
one I grew up with. It grew up on it's own and in it's own way...

 RB> I know quite a number of Americans who would _fight_ to
 RB> preserve their familiar checking system, so "convenient" <g>
 RB> balancing your checkbook every month.

I hate every second I have to do that.

 RB> It took me a while to get used to the European system, too - which at
 RB> the time I came here wasn't as efficient or cheap as it is today. But
 RB> once you get used to it, you'll never want to go back to the
 RB> inconvenience of writing and sending paper checks through the mail.

I don't call writing and sending paper checks an inconvenience, I prefer
to call it a 'delaying action'. It doesn't take me more than 20 minutes
per month to enter 'who to and how much' in my checking software and then
printing those checks on my ink jet printer, sign them, tear them off the
printer sheet and stuff them in their provided envelope, stamp it and send
it on it's way. I could do all of that online at the bank website and it
would take the same amount of time, but I wouldn't get the delaying action
that I want out of those paper checks.


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