Text 1302, 252 rader
Skriven 2004-10-28 12:58:32 av Adam Flinton (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 1196 av Gary Wiltshire (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Article on WIPO & the public good
=============================================
From: Adam Flinton <adam_NO_@_SPAM_softfab.com>

Gary Wiltshire wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:11:00 +0100, Adam Flinton
> <adam_NO_@_SPAM_softfab.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes there are but the concorde was crippled by external factors such
>> as  public opposition based on noise in the US & the military utility
>> of a  mach2+ long range high flying aircraft. The Concorde was making
>> a very  healthy profit & the numbers of people who cross the atlantic
>> paying  first/business class prices demonstrate the numbers involved.
>
>
> Noise is part of the tradeoffs which determine practicality.  I
> remember  NO discussion of any "military" issues with the SST.
>

Why would you?

>> Nope becuase there were widescale protests in the period when the
>> production line was open wrt noise on takeoff/landing etc. The
>> production line was then closed & it was uneconomic to re-open it.
>
>
> Unless a quieter SST could have been produced again that shows the
> impracticality of the SST.
>

Concorde operated happily into London, New York etc.


>> It is. But flying is dangerous by commercial train stds so by that
>> measure commuter flights over land should be banned as being more
>> dangerous than necessary.
>
>
> You've got that backward.  Trains are dangerous by commercial flying
> standards.
>
>> In the same way as a 3 hour trip is more bearable than an 8 hour trip
>> &  has the added advantage of time saved?
>
>
> Only if time were the only factor.  You could be packed into a Mercury
> capsule and make it to the other side of the planet if less time.  How
> many passengers are doing it?
>
>> So one of the great advances of the last 50 years is not so great
>> compared to ye olde condom.
>
>
> Again, Adam, apples and oranges.  The only function they share is birth
> control.  You're back to apricots and your own lack of imagination.
>

The only function they share is birth control??? Exactly what do you think
their function is?




>>
>>>> Indeed not. However that is to assume that all oil/(natural) gas
>>>> fired  power stations use gas turbines.
>>>
>>>   Overwhelmingly commonplace here.  They are efficient and easy to
>>> scale up  in individual small units at need with very little advance
>>> notice.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe.
>
>
> No maybe about it.  They're downright wonderful for handling changing
> load  conditions.  There were even attempts to scale them down to
> automotive  powerplants.  My grandfather, when he worked for SOHIO, had
> temporary  custody of a Chrysler prototype.  Materials science wasn't up
> to the task  for cars.
>

Yup but you need a steady supply & then they operate on top of that, much like
a lot of hydro-electric stations where they can simply open the taps just as
major tv programs go into commericals.


>> Indeed they do. However if it was just as easy to get into the US by
>> air  then you'd be open to not just to central american poor but
>> global poor.
>
>
> We get plenty of global poor, thank you very much.
>

You do but not by air because of the tight restrictions placed on air travel.

>> Because of the tight controls placed on air travel.
>
>
> We don't have differential standards for poor people flying.
>

Yes you do. Every rich country does.

>> No they were not. Until fairly recently China was the greatest
>> economic  & scientific power in the world. It was in large part the
>> depradations  of the West (e.g. the Opium wars) allied to their
>> complacency which lead  to their temporary eclipse by the west.
>
>
> What China did and, for that matter much of the West as well, before
> Bacon's time could not be described as "science."
>

So when in your view did "science" start?


>> Equally the scientific & economic power house of Europe during the
>> period of scientific discovery by the West was Turkey.
>
>
> See above.
>

See above.

>>
>>
>>> There is a considerable  difference between Scientific Method and
>>> what  could hardly be called  "science" in China or other backward
>>> nations.
>>
>>
>> wrt to China you are simply wrong. It is just as correct to say that
>> there is a considerable difference between culture & what could
>> hardly  be called "culture" in the US or other backward nations.
>
>
> Do you even know what "Scientific Method" means?
>

Yes & it is undoubtably the case that many many people practiced it long before
it had a name. Do you think they just came across gunpowder? They would have
noticed something & then through experiment worked out the relative quantities
of differing constituents.

>>
>> Usury is against the tenets of a great number of religions. It is
>> against the tenets of Christianity too which used to account for the
>> "Shylock" image of Jews as Christians were also banned from usury.
>
>
> We (the west in general and Christianity in particular) got over it.
> It's  long past time for Islam to as well.
>

That is because We (the west in general) got over Christianity in particular.

If you are a hard line Christian, even now you should not engage in usury.

>>
>> The fact that the west engages in usury is more to do with the
>> decline  in imporatnce of Christianity in the West.
>
>
> I don't recall arguing in favor of Christianity.  A similar decline in
> the  importance of Islam in the mideast would be a similar plus.  An
> Enlightenment of their own would also be nice.
>

It has been underway for some time. You however simply choose to see the
religious nutters & the comparatively few muslim countries in which they hold
sway. I could choose American evangelists & thus note how it would be nice if
the Americans had an elightenment of their own & stopped pushing creationism
etc.

>>
>>
>>>> Yup. But the time & expense & danger involved in travelling between
>>>> Rome  & Constantinople then was greater than the equivalent journey
>>>> between  any 2 major cities on earth today.
>>>
>>>   That's very true, but it's still a bad comparison because the two
>>> were  essentially one bilingual culture with the western or "Roman"
>>> part largely  built upon eastern or "Greek" models.
>>>
>>
>> In what way is that different to the world we live in? The World
>> Bank,  WTO etc are basically western models which others then build upon.
>
>
> YOU were attempting to paint Rome versus Constantinople as somehow
> equivalent to the West versus the Third World.  You can't have it both
> ways.
>

Where does this versus come from? In no way did I say versus & in no way did I
state West & the 3'rd world.

Cultures constantly appropriate ideas & models from each other & always have.
The example of Rome & Greece shows this in that initially the Romans
appropriated enormous amounts from the Greeks, but later it was the Greeks (in
the form of th Eastern Roman Empire) who appropriated from the Romans.

Then following the fall of constantinople the Romans (now the Italians)
& indeed large chunks of the former Western Roman Empire (including
England) then appropriated the ideas, knowledge & culture back again in the
form of the renaissance.

>>
>> That model is in turn built upon a variety of sources including
>> arabic  numerics & algebra etc in the same way that english includes
>> large  numbers of indian words & concepts.
>
>
> Actually the contribution of indian words and concepts is statistically
> insignificant compared to original Anglo-Saxon, Norman French, Latin
> and  Greek.

In American english that might be so. As an example you say porch & we say
verandah.

We both use mugger & thug oddly.

> As far as science and mathematics go there is a
> considerable  difference between the hit-or-miss trial-and-error efforts
> of the east  years ago and scientific method.  It is not through raiding
> of some secret  exclusive cache of technological information secreted by
> advanced third  worlders that the West quickly attained technological
> supremecy.
>

We stole ideas from all over the place. Where did gunpowder come from? Where
did the magnetic compass come from.

What do you think the "Voyages of discovery" were about? Purely geographic
mapping?

>> Where western civilization is in large part built upon eastern basic
>> knowledge & civilization.
>
>
> Only in drips and drabs.  See above.
>

Rubbish. The world's cultures have interacted & learnt off each other since
written history began. One group got bronze...they tried to hide how to make it
but suddenly everyone could smelt bronze. Then one group got iron. etc.etc.etc.

Adam

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