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Text 2032, 393 rader
Skriven 2005-01-17 18:13:44 av Rich (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 2018 av Ellen K. (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Do we protect users from their own stupidity?
=========================================================
From: "Rich" <@>

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   Or care to do any of those three?  It is easy enough to do them all =
in any of the Microsoft email clients I use.  People don't becuase they = don't
care to.  Those that care do.

Rich

  "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in message =
news:ltcou0lhvanrbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com...
  Periodically I get phishing emails pretending to be from ebay, and =
they
  even manage to get "ebay" into the headers, but if you look up the IP
  address of course you find out it's not... but what percentage of =
users
  A) know how to find the header;
  B) know how to read it; or
  C) know how to look up an IP address?

  On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:01 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in message
  <41eaf508@w3.nls.net>:

  >   I disagree.
  >
  >   People do very much know the difference between their own computer =
and the other computers referenced in phishing attacks.  They know that = email
comes from somewhere outside their computer.  They know the web = site to which
they are referred is not their computer.  They still are = fooled.
  >
  >   People know they are choosing to download and install software =
from the Internet.  What they may not know is that it is or contains = spyware.
 There is no confusion over boundaries.
  >
  >   I believe your whole idea of trust is off base.  People aren't =
making decisions on whether or not to trust particular machines.  I = douby
very much most people even think that way.  People place trust in = other
people or in some cases who they believe those people are.  = Phishing attacks
for bank sites succeed because the people the fall pray = to them believe that
the people sending the email are valid = representitives of the bank and they
trust those people.
  >
  >   As for your initial premise, I honestly don't know what it is you =
believe is consistent that should not be or is different that should not = be. 
You can't be referring to the browser which is almost never used = for the
local computer and clearly identifies what is local and what is = not.
  >
  >   Your claim regarding phishing is also wrong.  The address bar is =
one possible indicator to users.  Phishing attacks preceeded any of = these and
continue without them.  I've seen phishing emails that make no = attempt to
mask the domain to which they refer.  People still get = fooled.  The address
bar probably means little to many users.  I can = tell when speaking with and
helping non-technical users that even though = they get that they type into the
address bar to go to a site they do not = always get that it is overloaded to
provide feedback to them where they = have gone.  The same with the status bar.
 Their have been status bar = spoofs.  They make little difference.  Do any of
these make a difference = to you so that you would be fooled?
  >
  >Rich
  >
  >  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net...
  >  part of the reason it's so easy to fool people is because of =
Microsoft. Remember some years ago when I said to make a consistant = interface
that blurs the line between the local machine and remote = machines/internet
machines was a mistake? Well that's one of the big = reasons why people today
are so easy to fool. They don't understand the = concept of trusted/untrusted
machines because it all looks the same to = them. They honestly don't know
where their machine ends and the rest of = the world begins.
  >
  >  I understood the logic behind making that a consistent interface =
and blurring the line but I saw the problem with it as well. How is a = user to
know the difference between a remote website and a help page = from one of
their own programs if there is no difference?
  >
  >  As for not knowing anyone who was infected due to the exploit of a =
bug, doesn't phishing work because of a bug that allows IE to show one =
address in the address bar while in fact it's talking to another = address?
What, doesn't that count?
  >
  >  Geo.
  >    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net...
  >       You can't protect them from their own stupidity.  I've seen =
plenty of examples of people getting infected with spyware due to their = own
explicit actions, either approving when asked if something should be =
installed or explicitly downloading and installing something that is or =
includes spyware.  I do not know of anyone personally that was infected = due
to an exploit of a bug.  Phishing is another example that relies = almost
entirely on people being to trusting and doing something they = shouldn't.  I
haven't seen an email virus in a long time that did not = rely on the user
following instructions in the email to act against his = own interest and run
or even save then open and run something they = shouldn't.  We are well beyond
what many folks would consider security.  = To protect against people making
these kinds of mistakes you have to = take choices they can't be trusted making
away from them.  That upsets = the folks that can be trusted to or want to make
these choices unhappy.  = This
  >isn't far from the idea that putting you in a straightjacket makes =
you more secure because you are less likely to hurt yourself.  As for = how
people react to this, do you remember the reaction to cars that = buzzed or
otherwise made noise when the driver or a passenger did not = wear his seat
belt?  It wasn't positive.
  >
  >    Rich
  >      "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in =
message news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com...
  >      And that is a very big problem when trying to figure out what =
security
  >      features should be built in or what functionality should be =
allowed.  Do
  >      we protect users from their own stupidity?   I guess there is a
  >      rationale for doing so in that if the masses' machines are =
laxly secured
  >      (if at all), the danger to _everyone_ increases.
  >
  >      On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:07:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in message
  >      <41e30a96@w3.nls.net>:
  >
  >      >   I agree there are a great many people that have no interest =
in or familiarity with exercising the control available to them.  That = will
always be true. =20
  >      >
  >      >Rich
  >      >
  >      >  "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote =
in message news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com...
  >      >  Well, I think this conversation is all over the place =
regarding who we
  >      >  are talking about when we talk about users.  The folks here =
are an
  >      >  entirely different animal from the famous great unwashed =
masses.
  >      >
  >      >  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
  >      >  <41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net>:
  >      >
  >      >  >   Because you are in control, my point to george.
  >      >  >
  >      >  >Rich

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Or care to do any of those =

three?&nbsp; It is easy enough to do them all in any of the Microsoft =
email=20
clients I use.&nbsp; People don't becuase they don't care to.&nbsp; = Those
that=20
care do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:ltcou0lhvanrbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com">news:ltcou0lhvan=
rbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>Periodically=20
  I get phishing emails pretending to be from ebay, and they<BR>even =
manage to=20
  get "ebay" into the headers, but if you look up the IP<BR>address of =
course=20
  you find out it's not... but what percentage of users<BR>A) know how =
to find=20
  the header;<BR>B) know how to read it; or<BR>C) know how to look up an =
IP=20
  address?<BR><BR>On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:01 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; =
wrote in=20
  message<BR>&lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:41eaf508@w3.nls.net">41eaf508@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR><BR>&=
gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  I disagree.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; People do very much know the=20
  difference between their own computer and the other computers =
referenced in=20
  phishing attacks.&nbsp; They know that email comes from somewhere =
outside=20
  their computer.&nbsp; They know the web site to which they are =
referred is not=20
  their computer.&nbsp; They still are =
fooled.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  People know they are choosing to download and install software from =
the=20
  Internet.&nbsp; What they may not know is that it is or contains=20
  spyware.&nbsp; There is no confusion over=20
  boundaries.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe your whole idea of =
trust is=20
  off base.&nbsp; People aren't making decisions on whether or not to =
trust=20
  particular machines.&nbsp; I douby very much most people even think =
that=20
  way.&nbsp; People place trust in other people or in some cases who =
they=20
  believe those people are.&nbsp; Phishing attacks for bank sites =
succeed=20
  because the people the fall pray to them believe that the people =
sending the=20
  email are valid representitives of the bank and they trust those=20
  people.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; As for your initial premise, I =
honestly=20
  don't know what it is you believe is consistent that should not be or =
is=20
  different that should not be.&nbsp; You can't be referring to the =
browser=20
  which is almost never used for the local computer and clearly =
identifies what=20
  is local and what is not.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Your claim =
regarding=20
  phishing is also wrong.&nbsp; The address bar is one possible =
indicator to=20
  users.&nbsp; Phishing attacks preceeded any of these and continue =
without=20
  them.&nbsp; I've seen phishing emails that make no attempt to mask the =
domain=20
  to which they refer.&nbsp; People still get fooled.&nbsp; The address =
bar=20
  probably means little to many users.&nbsp; I can tell when speaking =
with and=20
  helping non-technical users that even though they get that they type =
into the=20
  address bar to go to a site they do not always get that it is =
overloaded to=20
  provide feedback to them where they have gone.&nbsp; The same with the =
status=20
  bar.&nbsp; Their have been status bar spoofs.&nbsp; They make little=20
  difference.&nbsp; Do any of these make a difference to you so that you =
would=20
  be fooled?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Rich<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "Geo" &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote in =
message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&gt;=
&nbsp;=20
  part of the reason it's so easy to fool people is because of =
Microsoft.=20
  Remember some years ago when I said to make a consistant interface =
that blurs=20
  the line between the local machine and remote machines/internet =
machines was a=20
  mistake? Well that's one of the big reasons why people today are so =
easy to=20
  fool. They don't understand the concept of trusted/untrusted machines =
because=20
  it all looks the same to them. They honestly don't know where their =
machine=20
  ends and the rest of the world begins.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; I =
understood the=20
  logic behind making that a consistent interface and blurring the line =
but I=20
  saw the problem with it as well. How is a user to know the difference =
between=20
  a remote website and a help page from one of their own programs if =
there is no=20
  difference?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; As for not knowing anyone who was =
infected=20
  due to the exploit of a bug, doesn't phishing work because of a bug =
that=20
  allows IE to show one address in the address bar while in fact it's =
talking to=20
  another address? What, doesn't that count?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
  Geo.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  You can't protect them from their own stupidity.&nbsp; I've seen =
plenty of=20
  examples of people getting infected with spyware due to their own =
explicit=20
  actions, either approving when asked if something should be installed =
or=20
  explicitly downloading and installing something that is or includes=20
  spyware.&nbsp; I do not know of anyone personally that was infected =
due to an=20
  exploit of a bug.&nbsp; Phishing is another example that relies almost =

  entirely on people being to trusting and doing something they =
shouldn't.&nbsp;=20
  I haven't seen an email virus in a long time that did not rely on the =
user=20
  following instructions in the email to act against his own interest =
and run or=20
  even save then open and run something they shouldn't.&nbsp; We are =
well beyond=20
  what many folks would consider security.&nbsp; To protect against =
people=20
  making these kinds of mistakes you have to take choices they can't be =
trusted=20
  making away from them.&nbsp; That upsets the folks that can be trusted =
to or=20
  want to make these choices unhappy.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt;isn't far from =
the idea=20
  that putting you in a straightjacket makes you more secure because you =
are=20
  less likely to hurt yourself.&nbsp; As for how people react to this, =
do you=20
  remember the reaction to cars that buzzed or otherwise made noise when =
the=20
  driver or a passenger did not wear his seat belt?&nbsp; It wasn't=20
  positive.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  Rich<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com">news:48qju0547j4=
l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
  And that is a very big problem when trying to figure out what=20
  security<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; features should be =
built in or=20
  what functionality should be allowed.&nbsp;=20
  Do<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; we protect users from their =
own=20
  stupidity?&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess there is=20
  a<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rationale for doing so in that =
if the=20
  masses' machines are laxly =
secured<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (if=20
  at all), the danger to _everyone_=20
  increases.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On Mon, 10 =
Jan 2005=20
  15:07:12 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in=20
  message<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:41e30a96@w3.nls.net">41e30a96@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;<=
BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I agree there are a great many people that have no =
interest=20
  in or familiarity with exercising the control available to them.&nbsp; =
That=20
  will always be true.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &gt;Rich<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; "Ellen K." =
&lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com">news:7og4u0pj8f0=
nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
  &gt;&nbsp; Well, I think this conversation is all over the place =
regarding who=20
  we<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; are talking about =
when we=20
  talk about users.&nbsp; The folks here are=20
  an<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; entirely different =
animal=20
  from the famous great unwashed =
masses.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; On Sun, 9 Jan =
2005=20
  01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in=20
  message<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net">41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Because=20
  you are in control, my point to =
george.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  &gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;=20
&gt;Rich<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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