Text 2031, 599 rader
Skriven 2005-01-17 18:08:02 av Rich (1:379/45)
Kommentar till text 2025 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Usage history
=========================
From: "Rich" <@>
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The credit card company knows what the merchants tell them. Don't =
like this, don't use a credit card. The problem existed well before the =
Internet and the Internet hasn't changed it.
Banks letting you pay your bills is nothing. If you wrote checks =
they got the checks. Don't like it, don't use a bank.
Before you try to toss out more examples, anyone you tell about =
yourself knows what you tell them. Don't want them to know? Don't tell =
them.
You don't need to go through a proxy/cache to be tracked. I don't =
know why you referred to http://www.whatsmyip.com/. It looks like a = junk
search site.
You own your own mail server? Do you think you are in any way with a =
mile of typical?
I thought that nls.net was your ISP and not your personally. If you =
create your own email addresses in your ISP's domain then you are even =
further from typical.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:41ec4fac@w3.nls.net...
Not true, yes an ISP can track you provide they are your only =
connection to the net but lots of other places can track you to = different
sites as well. Your credit card company can damn well tell you = where you have
purchased stuff as can any other service that handles = transactions for you.
Bank sites where they let you pay all your bills = from one site is another
example, I would imagine a single login service = could also track you across
sites as can the big advertisers who have = ads on lots of the sites you visit.
As for if I didn't work for the ISP, I still would have an idea, there =
are tests you can do to see if you are going thru a proxy/cache server =
(www.whatsmyip.com for example) and such. When netlink was small I = busted our
upstream routing my machine different than all the other = machines on the same
subnet, used traceroute to show that. There are = lots of other ways as well
(some ping/syn tricks to find some types of = sniffers etc.)
And yes, I run my own mail server and I make up lots of alias for me =
specifically for shopping. For example right now today if you send an = email
to shopping@nls.net I'll get it because I used that alias for my = christmas
shopping this year and I haven't deleted it yet.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41ebf6ae@w3.nls.net...
Only your ISP can track where you go and what you buy without the =
sites you buying from selling this info.
If you were not employed by your ISP you would have no idea =
whether or not they are tracking you.
Doesn't Amazon use an email address for sign-in? Do you create =
unique email addresses for all such sites?
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net...
My ISP doesn't track dns requests or sniff traffic to see where =
people are going, granted some like AOL do keep stats but the ISP I use = could
care less. My browser cache and history are purged each time I end = crazy
browser as are my cookies. Like Ellen I use different usernames = and passwords
at sites like amazon, my bank, my credit card company, etc = but I use the same
username at sites I don't care about like the NYT = site and other stupid sites
that require a login for no apparent reason.
The last thing I want is some service that can track where I go =
and what I buy. I only accept this from my credit card company because I = have
no other choice.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net...
No true. There is plenty to betray you. Your ISP of course =
knows the sites you visit as does anyone that can see even the small = subset
of traffic for DNS resolution. Your browser's cache and history = also serve
this purpose. There are plenty more.
The attacker can also take a different approach that is =
likely more effective anyway. Pick a high value site and try the stolen = IDs
on them. Amazon may not use single sign-in but you don't care = because it
does not matter. Then try them again at Citibank. Then = again at whatever
site you want. This approach will have more value then = trying to sign in at
match.com using AOL's screenname service or = Microsoft's Passport, both of
which it supports.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net...
the difference between single sign on and the practice of =
using the same username/password on multiple sites is that with the = single
password there is no function to betray the user. In other words = there is
nothing but the user to connect all those sites together. With = the single
sign on, all you need is a list of sites that uses that = single sign on
service.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net...
There was an optional wallet service and you are right, =
this additional optional service could not be anonymous. You aren't =
comparing apples to apples if you include the people that made a choice = to
use this. Folks that wanted to be anonymous would not choose this.
Really, this argument is silly. I don't know you but too =
many people I know use the same password on the many sites that require = them
to register, whether they lie or not. Their intent is to have = something that
acts like single sign-in. Now I'm sure the people =
arguing against single sign-in here are not hypocrits and all use = distinct
unique usernames, email addresses, passwords, etc for each and = every account
they have. Don't you?
Rich
"Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> =
wrote in message news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com...
Well, if you only use Passport as a signin, yes. But =
there was a piece
to it where it would know your credit card information so =
when you used
it to log on to a site where you wanted to buy stuff you =
wouldn't have
to enter the credit card information. It would be =
impossible to use
that part and be anonymous.
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
<41e30b2c@w3.nls.net>:
> I disagree. Passport is no less anonymous than other =
signin mechanisms. You are in control of the information you provide to =
create your signin. If you want to lie then lie.
>
>Rich
>
> "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> =
wrote in message news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com...
> I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they =
don't disclose...
> his message gave examples of people trying to be =
anonymous... but
> someone trying to be anonymous wouldn't use Passport =
(unless they were
> REALLY stupid) so I'm not quite following the logic =
either.
>
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:25 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
> <41e1720a@w3.nls.net>:
>
> > The fragment you chose to quote is interesting. =
How many services claim that they do not disclose info as required by = law?
> >
> > The rest is garbage.
> >
> >Rich
> >
> > "Mike N." <mike@u-spam-u-die.net> wrote in message =
news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote:
> >
> > > If you mean to question what Passport is to =
Microsoft you should use Microsoft's claims about the service
> >
> > =
http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033
> >
> > "NET Passport may disclose personal information if =
required to do so by law
> > or in the good-faith belief that such action is =
necessary to: (a) conform
> > to legal requirements or comply with legal process =
served on Microsoft;"
> >
> > This confirms the information I already had. A =
single signon is for
> > convenience, not security. Sure your ISP can see =
what you're doing. They
> > can initiate a wiretap when served by a subpoena. =
However there are many
> > people for which this won't suffice -
> > o terrorists who jump from Cafe to Cafe.
> > o commuters who use wireless internet services =
from Starbucks, at work,
> > airports, etc.
> > o Those who attempt to escape identity by =
wardriving from open wireless
> > to open wireless LAN.
> > Investigators would need to obtain subpoenas =
from thousands of ISPs to
> > cover all activities of a person. Alternatively, =
assuming that .NET is in
> > widespread use, they would just need to subpoena =
Microsoft to get a
> > complete profile of sites where a signon was used, =
and the IP
> > address/date/time they were accessed from.
> >
> > It still appears that if anyone gets your =
passport login, they can
> > assume your signon, just as if they are you.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> The credit card company =
knows what the=20
merchants tell them. Don't like this, don't use a credit = card.
The=20
problem existed well before the Internet and the Internet hasn't changed =
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Banks letting you pay your =
bills is=20
nothing. If you wrote checks they got the checks. Don't like =
it,=20
don't use a bank.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Before you try to toss out =
more=20
examples, anyone you tell about yourself knows what you tell them. =
Don't=20
want them to know? Don't tell them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> You don't need to go =
through a=20
proxy/cache to be tracked. I don't know why you referred to <A=20
href=3D"http://www.whatsmyip.com/">http://www.whatsmyip.com/</A>. = It
looks=20
like a junk search site.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> You own your own mail =
server? Do=20
you think you are in any way with a mile of typical?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I thought that nls.net was =
your ISP=20
and not your personally. If you create your own email addresses in =
your=20
ISP's domain then you are even further from typical.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>> wrote=20
in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41ec4fac@w3.nls.net">news:41ec4fac@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not true, yes an ISP can track you =
provide they=20
are your only connection to the net but lots of other places can track =
you to=20
different sites as well. Your credit card company can damn well tell =
you where=20
you have purchased stuff as can any other service that handles =
transactions=20
for you. Bank sites where they let you pay all your bills from one =
site is=20
another example, I would imagine a single login service could also =
track you=20
across sites as can the big advertisers who have ads on lots of the =
sites you=20
visit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As for if I didn't work for the ISP, =
I still=20
would have an idea, there are tests you can do to see if you are going =
thru a=20
proxy/cache server (<A =
href=3D"http://www.whatsmyip.com">www.whatsmyip.com</A>=20
for example) and such. When netlink was small I busted our upstream =
routing my=20
machine different than all the other machines on the same subnet, used =
traceroute to show that. There are lots of other ways as well (some =
ping/syn=20
tricks to find some types of sniffers etc.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And yes, I run my own mail server and =
I make up=20
lots of alias for me specifically for shopping. For example right now =
today if=20
you send an email to <A =
href=3D"mailto:shopping@nls.net">shopping@nls.net</A>=20
I'll get it because I used that alias for my christmas shopping this =
year and=20
I haven't deleted it yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41ebf6ae@w3.nls.net">news:41ebf6ae@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Only your ISP can =
track where you=20
go and what you buy without the sites you buying from selling=20
this info.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> If you were not =
employed by your=20
ISP you would have no idea whether or not they are tracking=20
you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Doesn't Amazon use an =
email=20
address for sign-in? Do you create unique email addresses for =
all such=20
sites?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net">news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My ISP doesn't track dns requests =
or sniff=20
traffic to see where people are going, granted some like AOL do =
keep stats=20
but the ISP I use could care less. My browser cache and history =
are purged=20
each time I end crazy browser as are my cookies. Like Ellen I use=20
different usernames and passwords at sites like amazon, my bank, =
my credit=20
card company, etc but I use the same username at sites I don't =
care about=20
like the NYT site and other stupid sites that require a login for =
no=20
apparent reason.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The last thing I want is some =
service that=20
can track where I go and what I buy. I only accept this from my =
credit=20
card company because I have no other choice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net">news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> No true. =
There is plenty=20
to betray you. Your ISP of course knows the sites you =
visit as=20
does anyone that can see even the small subset of traffic for =
DNS=20
resolution. Your browser's cache and history also serve =
this=20
purpose. There are plenty more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> The attacker can =
also take a=20
different approach that is likely more effective anyway. =
Pick a=20
high value site and try the stolen IDs on them. Amazon may =
not use=20
single sign-in but you don't care because it does not =
matter. Then=20
try them again at Citibank. Then again at whatever site =
you want.=20
This approach will have more value then trying to sign in at =
match.com=20
using AOL's screenname service or Microsoft's Passport, both of =
which it=20
supports.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>> wrote =
in message=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the difference between single =
sign on and=20
the practice of using the same username/password on multiple =
sites is=20
that with the single password there is no function to betray =
the user.=20
In other words there is nothing but the user to connect all =
those=20
sites together. With the single sign on, all you need is a =
list of=20
sites that uses that single sign on service.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> There was an =
optional=20
wallet service and you are right, this additional optional =
service=20
could not be anonymous. You aren't comparing apples to =
apples=20
if you include the people that made a choice to use =
this. =20
Folks that wanted to be anonymous would not choose=20
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Really, this =
argument is=20
silly. I don't know you but too many people I know use =
the=20
same password on the many sites that require them to =
register,=20
whether they lie or not. Their intent is to have =
something=20
that acts like single sign-in. Now I'm sure the =
people=20
arguing against single sign-in here are not hypocrits and =
all use=20
distinct unique usernames, email addresses, passwords, etc =
for each=20
and every account they have. Don't you?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Ellen K." <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com">news:ldqju0pdbcl=
q8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>Well,=20
if you only use Passport as a signin, yes. But there =
was a=20
piece<BR>to it where it would know your credit card =
information so=20
when you used<BR>it to log on to a site where you wanted =
to buy=20
stuff you wouldn't have<BR>to enter the credit card=20
information. It would be impossible to =
use<BR>that=20
part and be anonymous.<BR><BR>On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 =
-0800,=20
"Rich" <@> wrote in message<BR><<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:41e30b2c@w3.nls.net">41e30b2c@w3.nls.net</A>>:<BR><BR>&=
gt; =20
I disagree. Passport is no less anonymous than other =
signin=20
mechanisms. You are in control of the information =
you=20
provide to create your signin. If you want to lie =
then=20
lie.<BR>><BR>>Rich<BR>><BR>> "Ellen K." =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com">news:c5h4u0p76hl=
80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com</A>...<BR>> =20
I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they don't=20
disclose...<BR>> his message gave examples of =
people=20
trying to be anonymous... but<BR>> someone trying =
to be=20
anonymous wouldn't use Passport (unless they =
were<BR>> =20
REALLY stupid) so I'm not quite following the logic=20
either.<BR>><BR>> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:25 =
-0800,=20
"Rich" <@> wrote in message<BR>> <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:41e1720a@w3.nls.net">41e1720a@w3.nls.net</A>>:<BR>><=
BR>> =20
> The fragment you chose to quote is=20
interesting. How many services claim that they do =
not=20
disclose info as required by law?<BR>> =
><BR>> =20
> The rest is garbage.<BR>> =20
><BR>> >Rich<BR>> =
><BR>> =20
> "Mike N." <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:mike@u-spam-u-die.net">mike@u-spam-u-die.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com">news:e8b2u0hias1=
bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com</A>...<BR>> =20
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" =
<@>=20
wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> > > If =
you=20
mean to question what Passport is to Microsoft you should =
use=20
Microsoft's claims about the service<BR>> =20
><BR>> > <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033">htt=
p://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033</A><BR>>&nbs=
p;=20
><BR>> > "NET Passport may disclose =
personal=20
information if required to do so by law<BR>> =
> =20
or in the good-faith belief that such action is necessary =
to: (a)=20
conform<BR>> > to legal requirements or =
comply=20
with legal process served on Microsoft;"<BR>> =20
><BR>> > This =
confirms the=20
information I already had. A single signon is=20
for<BR>> > convenience, not =
security. Sure=20
your ISP can see what you're doing. =
They<BR>> =20
> can initiate a wiretap when served by a =
subpoena. =20
However there are many<BR>> > people for =
which=20
this won't suffice -<BR>> =
> o=20
terrorists who jump from Cafe to Cafe.<BR>> =20
> o commuters who use wireless =
internet=20
services from Starbucks, at work,<BR>> > =
airports, etc.<BR>> > o =
Those who=20
attempt to escape identity by wardriving from open=20
wireless<BR>> > to open wireless=20
LAN.<BR>> > =20
Investigators would need to obtain subpoenas from =
thousands of=20
ISPs to<BR>> > cover all activities of a =
person. Alternatively, assuming that .NET is=20
in<BR>> > widespread use, they would =
just need=20
to subpoena Microsoft to get a<BR>> > =
complete=20
profile of sites where a signon was used, and the =
IP<BR>> =20
> address/date/time they were accessed=20
from.<BR>> ><BR>> =20
> It still appears that if =
anyone gets=20
your passport login, they can<BR>> =
> =20
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