Text 2025, 518 rader
Skriven 2005-01-17 18:50:48 av Geo (1:379/45)
Kommentar till text 2012 av Rich (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Usage history
=========================
From: "Geo" <georger@nls.net>
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Not true, yes an ISP can track you provide they are your only connection = to
the net but lots of other places can track you to different sites as = well.
Your credit card company can damn well tell you where you have = purchased
stuff as can any other service that handles transactions for = you. Bank sites
where they let you pay all your bills from one site is = another example, I
would imagine a single login service could also track = you across sites as can
the big advertisers who have ads on lots of the = sites you visit.
As for if I didn't work for the ISP, I still would have an idea, there = are
tests you can do to see if you are going thru a proxy/cache server =
(www.whatsmyip.com for example) and such. When netlink was small I = busted our
upstream routing my machine different than all the other = machines on the same
subnet, used traceroute to show that. There are = lots of other ways as well
(some ping/syn tricks to find some types of = sniffers etc.)
And yes, I run my own mail server and I make up lots of alias for me =
specifically for shopping. For example right now today if you send an = email
to shopping@nls.net I'll get it because I used that alias for my = christmas
shopping this year and I haven't deleted it yet.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41ebf6ae@w3.nls.net...
Only your ISP can track where you go and what you buy without the =
sites you buying from selling this info.
If you were not employed by your ISP you would have no idea whether =
or not they are tracking you.
Doesn't Amazon use an email address for sign-in? Do you create =
unique email addresses for all such sites?
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net...
My ISP doesn't track dns requests or sniff traffic to see where =
people are going, granted some like AOL do keep stats but the ISP I use = could
care less. My browser cache and history are purged each time I end = crazy
browser as are my cookies. Like Ellen I use different usernames = and passwords
at sites like amazon, my bank, my credit card company, etc = but I use the same
username at sites I don't care about like the NYT = site and other stupid sites
that require a login for no apparent reason.
The last thing I want is some service that can track where I go and =
what I buy. I only accept this from my credit card company because I = have no
other choice.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net...
No true. There is plenty to betray you. Your ISP of course =
knows the sites you visit as does anyone that can see even the small = subset
of traffic for DNS resolution. Your browser's cache and history = also serve
this purpose. There are plenty more.
The attacker can also take a different approach that is likely =
more effective anyway. Pick a high value site and try the stolen IDs on =
them. Amazon may not use single sign-in but you don't care because it = does
not matter. Then try them again at Citibank. Then again at = whatever site
you want. This approach will have more value then trying = to sign in at
match.com using AOL's screenname service or Microsoft's = Passport, both of
which it supports.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net...
the difference between single sign on and the practice of using =
the same username/password on multiple sites is that with the single = password
there is no function to betray the user. In other words there = is nothing but
the user to connect all those sites together. With the = single sign on, all
you need is a list of sites that uses that single = sign on service.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net...
There was an optional wallet service and you are right, =
this additional optional service could not be anonymous. You aren't =
comparing apples to apples if you include the people that made a choice = to
use this. Folks that wanted to be anonymous would not choose this.
Really, this argument is silly. I don't know you but too =
many people I know use the same password on the many sites that require = them
to register, whether they lie or not. Their intent is to have = something that
acts like single sign-in. Now I'm sure the people =
arguing against single sign-in here are not hypocrits and all use = distinct
unique usernames, email addresses, passwords, etc for each and = every account
they have. Don't you?
Rich
"Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote =
in message news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com...
Well, if you only use Passport as a signin, yes. But there =
was a piece
to it where it would know your credit card information so =
when you used
it to log on to a site where you wanted to buy stuff you =
wouldn't have
to enter the credit card information. It would be =
impossible to use
that part and be anonymous.
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
<41e30b2c@w3.nls.net>:
> I disagree. Passport is no less anonymous than other =
signin mechanisms. You are in control of the information you provide to =
create your signin. If you want to lie then lie.
>
>Rich
>
> "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> =
wrote in message news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com...
> I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they don't =
disclose...
> his message gave examples of people trying to be =
anonymous... but
> someone trying to be anonymous wouldn't use Passport =
(unless they were
> REALLY stupid) so I'm not quite following the logic =
either.
>
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:25 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
> <41e1720a@w3.nls.net>:
>
> > The fragment you chose to quote is interesting. How =
many services claim that they do not disclose info as required by law?
> >
> > The rest is garbage.
> >
> >Rich
> >
> > "Mike N." <mike@u-spam-u-die.net> wrote in message =
news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote:
> >
> > > If you mean to question what Passport is to =
Microsoft you should use Microsoft's claims about the service
> >
> > =
http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033
> >
> > "NET Passport may disclose personal information if =
required to do so by law
> > or in the good-faith belief that such action is =
necessary to: (a) conform
> > to legal requirements or comply with legal process =
served on Microsoft;"
> >
> > This confirms the information I already had. A =
single signon is for
> > convenience, not security. Sure your ISP can see what =
you're doing. They
> > can initiate a wiretap when served by a subpoena. =
However there are many
> > people for which this won't suffice -
> > o terrorists who jump from Cafe to Cafe.
> > o commuters who use wireless internet services from =
Starbucks, at work,
> > airports, etc.
> > o Those who attempt to escape identity by wardriving =
from open wireless
> > to open wireless LAN.
> > Investigators would need to obtain subpoenas from =
thousands of ISPs to
> > cover all activities of a person. Alternatively, =
assuming that .NET is in
> > widespread use, they would just need to subpoena =
Microsoft to get a
> > complete profile of sites where a signon was used, and =
the IP
> > address/date/time they were accessed from.
> >
> > It still appears that if anyone gets your passport =
login, they can
> > assume your signon, just as if they are you.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not true, yes an ISP can track you =
provide they are=20
your only connection to the net but lots of other places can track you = to=20
different sites as well. Your credit card company can damn well tell you =
where=20
you have purchased stuff as can any other service that handles = transactions
for=20
you. Bank sites where they let you pay all your bills from one site is =
another=20
example, I would imagine a single login service could also track you =
across=20
sites as can the big advertisers who have ads on lots of the sites you=20
visit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As for if I didn't work for the ISP, I =
still would=20
have an idea, there are tests you can do to see if you are going thru a=20
proxy/cache server (<A =
href=3D"http://www.whatsmyip.com">www.whatsmyip.com</A> for=20 example) and
such. When netlink was small I busted our upstream routing = my=20
machine different than all the other machines on the same subnet, used=20
traceroute to show that. There are lots of other ways as well (some =
ping/syn=20
tricks to find some types of sniffers etc.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And yes, I run my own mail server and I =
make up=20
lots of alias for me specifically for shopping. For example right now = today
if=20
you send an email to <A =
href=3D"mailto:shopping@nls.net">shopping@nls.net</A> I'll=20 get it because I
used that alias for my christmas shopping this year and = I=20
haven't deleted it yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41ebf6ae@w3.nls.net">news:41ebf6ae@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Only your ISP can track =
where you go=20
and what you buy without the sites you buying from selling=20
this info.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> If you were not employed =
by your ISP=20
you would have no idea whether or not they are tracking =
you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Doesn't Amazon use an =
email address=20
for sign-in? Do you create unique email addresses for all such=20
sites?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net">news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My ISP doesn't track dns requests =
or sniff=20
traffic to see where people are going, granted some like AOL do keep =
stats=20
but the ISP I use could care less. My browser cache and history are =
purged=20
each time I end crazy browser as are my cookies. Like Ellen I use =
different=20
usernames and passwords at sites like amazon, my bank, my credit =
card=20
company, etc but I use the same username at sites I don't care about =
like=20
the NYT site and other stupid sites that require a login for no =
apparent=20
reason.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The last thing I want is some =
service that can=20
track where I go and what I buy. I only accept this from my credit =
card=20
company because I have no other choice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net">news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> No true. There =
is plenty=20
to betray you. Your ISP of course knows the sites you visit =
as does=20
anyone that can see even the small subset of traffic for DNS=20
resolution. Your browser's cache and history also serve this =
purpose. There are plenty more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> The attacker can =
also take a=20
different approach that is likely more effective anyway. =
Pick a high=20
value site and try the stolen IDs on them. Amazon may not =
use single=20
sign-in but you don't care because it does not matter. Then =
try them=20
again at Citibank. Then again at whatever site you want. =
This=20
approach will have more value then trying to sign in at match.com =
using=20
AOL's screenname service or Microsoft's Passport, both of which it =
supports.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the difference between single =
sign on and=20
the practice of using the same username/password on multiple =
sites is=20
that with the single password there is no function to betray the =
user.=20
In other words there is nothing but the user to connect all =
those sites=20
together. With the single sign on, all you need is a list of =
sites that=20
uses that single sign on service.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> There was an =
optional wallet=20
service and you are right, this additional optional service =
could not=20
be anonymous. You aren't comparing apples to apples if =
you=20
include the people that made a choice to use this. Folks =
that=20
wanted to be anonymous would not choose this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Really, this =
argument is=20
silly. I don't know you but too many people I know use =
the same=20
password on the many sites that require them to register, =
whether they=20
lie or not. Their intent is to have something that acts =
like=20
single sign-in. Now I'm sure the people arguing =
against=20
single sign-in here are not hypocrits and all use distinct =
unique=20
usernames, email addresses, passwords, etc for each and every =
account=20
they have. Don't you?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Ellen K." <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com">news:ldqju0pdbcl=
q8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>Well,=20
if you only use Passport as a signin, yes. But there =
was a=20
piece<BR>to it where it would know your credit card =
information so=20
when you used<BR>it to log on to a site where you wanted to =
buy=20
stuff you wouldn't have<BR>to enter the credit card=20
information. It would be impossible to =
use<BR>that part=20
and be anonymous.<BR><BR>On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 -0800, =
"Rich"=20
<@> wrote in message<BR><<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:41e30b2c@w3.nls.net">41e30b2c@w3.nls.net</A>>:<BR><BR>&=
gt; =20
I disagree. Passport is no less anonymous than other =
signin=20
mechanisms. You are in control of the information you =
provide=20
to create your signin. If you want to lie then=20
lie.<BR>><BR>>Rich<BR>><BR>> "Ellen K." =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com">news:c5h4u0p76hl=
80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com</A>...<BR>> =20
I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they don't=20
disclose...<BR>> his message gave examples of =
people trying=20
to be anonymous... but<BR>> someone trying to be =
anonymous=20
wouldn't use Passport (unless they were<BR>> REALLY =
stupid)=20
so I'm not quite following the logic =
either.<BR>><BR>> =20
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:25 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message<BR>> <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:41e1720a@w3.nls.net">41e1720a@w3.nls.net</A>>:<BR>><=
BR>> =20
> The fragment you chose to quote is=20
interesting. How many services claim that they do not =
disclose=20
info as required by law?<BR>> ><BR>> =20
> The rest is garbage.<BR>> =20
><BR>> >Rich<BR>> ><BR>> =
> "Mike N." <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:mike@u-spam-u-die.net">mike@u-spam-u-die.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com">news:e8b2u0hias1=
bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com</A>...<BR>> =20
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" =
<@>=20
wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> > > If =
you mean=20
to question what Passport is to Microsoft you should use =
Microsoft's=20
claims about the service<BR>> ><BR>> =
> =20
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033">htt=
p://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033</A><BR>>&nbs=
p;=20
><BR>> > "NET Passport may disclose =
personal=20
information if required to do so by law<BR>> =
> or=20
in the good-faith belief that such action is necessary to: =
(a)=20
conform<BR>> > to legal requirements or =
comply=20
with legal process served on Microsoft;"<BR>> =20
><BR>> > This =
confirms the=20
information I already had. A single signon is=20
for<BR>> > convenience, not =
security. Sure=20
your ISP can see what you're doing. They<BR>> =
> can initiate a wiretap when served by a =
subpoena. =20
However there are many<BR>> > people for =
which=20
this won't suffice -<BR>> =
> o=20
terrorists who jump from Cafe to Cafe.<BR>> =20
> o commuters who use wireless =
internet=20
services from Starbucks, at work,<BR>> > =
airports,=20
etc.<BR>> > o Those who =
attempt to=20
escape identity by wardriving from open =
wireless<BR>> =20
> to open wireless LAN.<BR>> =20
> Investigators would need =
to=20
obtain subpoenas from thousands of ISPs to<BR>> =
> =20
cover all activities of a person. Alternatively, =
assuming that .NET is in<BR>> > widespread =
use,=20
they would just need to subpoena Microsoft to get =
a<BR>> =20
> complete profile of sites where a signon was =
used, and=20
the IP<BR>> > address/date/time they were =
accessed=20
from.<BR>> ><BR>> =
> =20
It still appears that if anyone gets your passport =
login, they=20
can<BR>> > assume your signon, just as if =
they are=20
=
you.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>=
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