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Möte OSDEBATE, 18996 texter
 lista första sista föregående nästa
Text 2012, 447 rader
Skriven 2005-01-17 09:33:22 av Rich (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 2010 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Usage history
=========================
From: "Rich" <@>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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   Only your ISP can track where you go and what you buy without the =
sites you buying from selling this info.

   If you were not employed by your ISP you would have no idea whether =
or not they are tracking you.

   Doesn't Amazon use an email address for sign-in?  Do you create =
unique email addresses for all such sites?

Rich

  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net...
  My ISP doesn't track dns requests or sniff traffic to see where people =
are going, granted some like AOL do keep stats but the ISP I use could = care
less. My browser cache and history are purged each time I end crazy = browser
as are my cookies. Like Ellen I use different usernames and = passwords at
sites like amazon, my bank, my credit card company, etc but = I use the same
username at sites I don't care about like the NYT site = and other stupid sites
that require a login for no apparent reason.

  The last thing I want is some service that can track where I go and =
what I buy. I only accept this from my credit card company because I = have no
other choice.

  Geo.
    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net...
       No true.  There is plenty to betray you.  Your ISP of course =
knows the sites you visit as does anyone that can see even the small = subset
of traffic for DNS resolution.  Your browser's cache and history = also serve
this purpose.  There are plenty more.

       The attacker can also take a different approach that is likely =
more effective anyway.  Pick a high value site and try the stolen IDs on =
them.  Amazon may not use single sign-in but you don't care because it = does
not matter.  Then try them again at Citibank.  Then again at = whatever site
you want. This approach will have more value then trying = to sign in at
match.com using AOL's screenname service or Microsoft's = Passport, both of
which it supports.

    Rich

      "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net...
      the difference between single sign on and the practice of using =
the same username/password on multiple sites is that with the single = password
there is no function to betray the user. In other words there = is nothing but
the user to connect all those sites together. With the = single sign on, all
you need is a list of sites that uses that single = sign on service.

      Geo.
        "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net...
           There was an optional wallet service and you are right, this =
additional optional service could not be anonymous.  You aren't = comparing
apples to apples if you include the people that made a choice = to use this. 
Folks that wanted to be anonymous would not choose this.

           Really, this argument is silly.  I don't know you but too =
many people I know use the same password on the many sites that require = them
to register, whether they lie or not.  Their intent is to have = something that
acts like single sign-in.   Now I'm sure the people =
arguing against single sign-in here are not hypocrits and all use = distinct
unique usernames, email addresses, passwords, etc for each and = every account
they have.  Don't you?

        Rich

          "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in =
message news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com...
          Well, if you only use Passport as a signin, yes.  But there =
was a piece
          to it where it would know your credit card information so when =
you used
          it to log on to a site where you wanted to buy stuff you =
wouldn't have
          to enter the credit card information.   It would be impossible =
to use
          that part and be anonymous.

          On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
          <41e30b2c@w3.nls.net>:

          >   I disagree.  Passport is no less anonymous than other =
signin mechanisms.  You are in control of the information you provide to =
create your signin.  If you want to lie then lie.
          >
          >Rich
          >
          >  "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote =
in message news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com...
          >  I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they don't =
disclose...
          >  his message gave examples of people trying to be =
anonymous... but
          >  someone trying to be anonymous wouldn't use Passport =
(unless they were
          >  REALLY stupid) so I'm not quite following the logic either.
          >
          >  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:25 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
          >  <41e1720a@w3.nls.net>:
          >
          >  >   The fragment you chose to quote is interesting.  How =
many services claim that they do not disclose info as required by law?
          >  >
          >  >   The rest is garbage.
          >  >
          >  >Rich
          >  >
          >  >  "Mike N." <mike@u-spam-u-die.net> wrote in message =
news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com...
          >  >  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote:
          >  >
          >  >  > If you mean to question what Passport is to Microsoft =
you should use Microsoft's claims about the service
          >  >
          >  >  =
http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033
          >  >
          >  >  "NET Passport may disclose personal information if =
required to do so by law
          >  >  or in the good-faith belief that such action is =
necessary to: (a) conform
          >  >  to legal requirements or comply with legal process =
served on Microsoft;"
          >  >
          >  >     This confirms the information I already had.  A =
single signon is for
          >  >  convenience, not security.  Sure your ISP can see what =
you're doing.  They
          >  >  can initiate a wiretap when served by a subpoena.  =
However there are many
          >  >  people for which this won't suffice -
          >  >     o terrorists who jump from Cafe to Cafe.
          >  >    o  commuters who use wireless internet services from =
Starbucks, at work,
          >  >  airports, etc.
          >  >    o Those who attempt to escape identity by wardriving =
from open wireless
          >  >  to open wireless LAN.
          >  >      Investigators would need to obtain subpoenas from =
thousands of ISPs to
          >  >  cover all activities of a person.   Alternatively, =
assuming that .NET is in
          >  >  widespread use, they would just need to subpoena =
Microsoft to get a
          >  >  complete profile of sites where a signon was used, and =
the IP
          >  >  address/date/time they were accessed from.
          >  >
          >  >     It still appears that if anyone gets your passport  =
login, they can
          >  >  assume your signon, just as if they are you.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Only your ISP can track =
where you go=20
and what you buy without the sites you buying from selling=20
this&nbsp;info.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; If you were not employed =
by your ISP=20
you would have no idea whether or not they are tracking = you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Doesn't Amazon use an =
email address=20
for sign-in?&nbsp; Do you create unique email addresses for all such=20
sites?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote=20
  in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net">news:41eba0f1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My ISP doesn't track dns requests or =
sniff=20
  traffic to see where people are going, granted some like AOL do keep =
stats but=20
  the ISP I use could care less. My browser cache and history are purged =
each=20
  time I end crazy browser as are my cookies. Like Ellen I use different =

  usernames and passwords at sites like amazon, my bank, my credit card =
company,=20
  etc but I use the same username at sites I don't care about like the =
NYT site=20
  and other stupid sites that require a login for no apparent=20
  reason.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The last thing I want is some service =
that can=20
  track where I go and what I buy. I only accept this from my credit =
card=20
  company because I have no other choice.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
    =
href=3D"news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net">news:41eaf6bc@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; No true.&nbsp; There =
is plenty to=20
    betray you.&nbsp; Your ISP of course knows the sites you visit as =
does=20
    anyone that can see even the small subset of traffic for DNS=20
    resolution.&nbsp; Your browser's cache and history also serve this=20
    purpose.&nbsp; There are plenty more.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The attacker can also =
take a=20
    different approach that is likely more effective anyway.&nbsp; Pick =
a high=20
    value site and try the stolen IDs on them.&nbsp; Amazon may not use =
single=20
    sign-in but you don't care because it does not matter.&nbsp; Then =
try them=20
    again at Citibank.&nbsp; Then again at whatever site you want. This =
approach=20
    will have more value then trying to sign in at match.com using AOL's =

    screenname service or Microsoft's Passport, both of which it=20
    supports.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the difference between single =
sign on and the=20
      practice of using the same username/password on multiple sites is =
that=20
      with the single password there is no function to betray the user. =
In other=20
      words there is nothing but the user to connect all those sites =
together.=20
      With the single sign on, all you need is a list of sites that uses =
that=20
      single sign on service.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
        =
href=3D"news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; There was an =
optional wallet=20
        service and you are right, this additional optional service =
could not be=20
        anonymous.&nbsp; You aren't comparing apples to apples if you =
include=20
        the people that made a choice to use this.&nbsp; Folks that =
wanted to be=20
        anonymous would not choose this.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Really, this =
argument is=20
        silly.&nbsp; I don't know you but too many people I know use the =
same=20
        password on the many sites that require them to register, =
whether they=20
        lie or not.&nbsp; Their intent is to have something that acts =
like=20
        single sign-in.&nbsp;&nbsp; Now I'm sure the people arguing =
against=20
        single sign-in here are not hypocrits and all use distinct =
unique=20
        usernames, email addresses, passwords, etc for each and every =
account=20
        they have.&nbsp; Don't you?</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV>"Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
          wrote in message <A=20
          =
href=3D"news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com">news:ldqju0pdbcl=
q8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>Well,=20
          if you only use Passport as a signin, yes.&nbsp; But there was =
a=20
          piece<BR>to it where it would know your credit card =
information so=20
          when you used<BR>it to log on to a site where you wanted to =
buy stuff=20
          you wouldn't have<BR>to enter the credit card =
information.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
          It would be impossible to use<BR>that part and be =
anonymous.<BR><BR>On=20
          Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in=20
          message<BR>&lt;<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:41e30b2c@w3.nls.net">41e30b2c@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR><BR>&=
gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
          I disagree.&nbsp; Passport is no less anonymous than other =
signin=20
          mechanisms.&nbsp; You are in control of the information you =
provide to=20
          create your signin.&nbsp; If you want to lie then=20
          lie.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Rich<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "Ellen K." =
&lt;<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
          wrote in message <A=20
          =
href=3D"news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com">news:c5h4u0p76hl=
80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they don't=20
          disclose...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; his message gave examples of people =
trying=20
          to be anonymous... but<BR>&gt;&nbsp; someone trying to be =
anonymous=20
          wouldn't use Passport (unless they were<BR>&gt;&nbsp; REALLY =
stupid)=20
          so I'm not quite following the logic =
either.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; On=20
          Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:25 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in=20
          message<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &lt;<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:41e1720a@w3.nls.net">41e1720a@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;<=
BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The fragment you chose to quote is =
interesting.&nbsp;=20
          How many services claim that they do not disclose info as =
required by=20
          law?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
rest is=20
          garbage.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;Rich<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; "Mike N." &lt;<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:mike@u-spam-u-die.net">mike@u-spam-u-die.net</A>&gt;=20
          wrote in message <A=20
          =
href=3D"news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com">news:e8b2u0hias1=
bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;&nbsp; On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; =

          wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; If you =
mean to=20
          question what Passport is to Microsoft you should use =
Microsoft's=20
          claims about the service<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&nbsp;=20
          <A=20
          =
href=3D"http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033">htt=
p://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033</A><BR>&gt;&nbs=
p;=20
          &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; "NET Passport may disclose =
personal=20
          information if required to do so by law<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&nbsp; or in=20
          the good-faith belief that such action is necessary to: (a)=20
          conform<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; to legal requirements or =
comply with=20
          legal process served on Microsoft;"<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This confirms the information I =
already=20
          had.&nbsp; A single signon is for<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;=20
          convenience, not security.&nbsp; Sure your ISP can see what =
you're=20
          doing.&nbsp; They<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; can initiate a =
wiretap when=20
          served by a subpoena.&nbsp; However there are =
many<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;&nbsp; people for which this won't suffice -<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =

          &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o terrorists who jump from Cafe =
to=20
          Cafe.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; commuters =
who use=20
          wireless internet services from Starbucks, at =
work,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;&nbsp; airports, etc.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
o Those=20
          who attempt to escape identity by wardriving from open=20
          wireless<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; to open wireless =
LAN.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Investigators would need to =
obtain=20
          subpoenas from thousands of ISPs to<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; =
cover all=20
          activities of a person.&nbsp;&nbsp; Alternatively, assuming =
that .NET=20
          is in<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; widespread use, they would just =
need to=20
          subpoena Microsoft to get a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; complete =
profile=20
          of sites where a signon was used, and the IP<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&nbsp;=20
          address/date/time they were accessed from.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It still =
appears that=20
          if anyone gets your passport&nbsp; login, they =
can<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
          &gt;&nbsp; assume your signon, just as if they are=20
      =
you.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>=
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