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Text 6041, 416 rader
Skriven 2005-07-14 17:59:50 av Rich (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 6034 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: eeye's irresponsible self-serving behavior
======================================================
From: "Rich" <@>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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   The thread I remember was mike miller and/or tony claiming that it =
was impossible to connect safely with Windows 2000 and both you and I =
responding that it is possible.  It's even easier with Windows XP.

   Of course, it wouldn't be a bad idea for ISPs such as nls.net to =
protect their customers though given your stated position of it being = good
for machines to be infected that might explain why you might not do = so.

Rich

  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:42d6c173@w3.nls.net...
  So every time someone reinstalls and goes on the internet, what =
happens that they become infected before they can get to windows update? =
Didn't we just have a thread on what you have to do to get to = windowsupdate
and patch without getting wormed first?

  I mean if you can't get patched before getting wormed, that's pretty =
defective in my book.

  Geo.
    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d69cd7@w3.nls.net...
       Your car analogy is a bad one.  Cars are recalled to the dealer, =
not the factory, because the consumer can't apply fixes at home.  = Software
doesn't work that way.

    Rich

      "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d68fad$2@w3.nls.net...
      Providing copies of windows in the box that are not fully patched =
should be proof enough. If MS were a car company, they would have to = issue a
recall every time there was a critical update released.

      Geo.
        "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d5f07d@w3.nls.net...
           So please give an example of irresponsible pr from Microsoft. =
 The 5 year old q&a to which you linked is not an example.  Since you =
are trying to compare this to the irresponsible self-serving pr from = eeye,
you should find a comparable example such as providing the = instructions
necessary to create malware like that eeye provides.

        Rich

          "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d5ed41@w3.nls.net...
          Microsoft doesn't promote malware, they do however use lots of =
irresponsible self-serving pr.

          Stuff like this line of bullshit then taking 188 days to patch =
a remote root anonymous exploit =
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/Features/2001/Oct01/10-03securityqa.ms=
px

          Geo.
            "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d5457f@w3.nls.net...
               Give me example of a Microsoft pr, say a page on =
www.microsoft.com, that provides the information needed for someone to = create
malware like eeye does.

               By interesting I mean intelectually interesting.  As for =
understanding, I think you confuse disagreement with and understanding = of. 
It's a common flaw.

            Rich

              "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d51209$2@w3.nls.net...
              I don't have a problem with their self-serving =
irresponsible pr any more than I do with microsofts irresponsible =
self-serving pr, that's a hangup that seems to be unique to you.

              As for interesting, you appear to be a programmer not a =
hacker so why would you find anything to do with hacking interesting? = You've
proven several times that you don't even understand the hacker = mindset.

              Geo.
                "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d4bd97@w3.nls.net...
                   You clearly buy into their self-serving irresponsible =
pr more than I do.  I was a bit surprised when you stated a few messages = back
that they steal the ideas for the vulnerabilities from others and = take credit
for themselves.  While they do not do much interesting, I = had at least though
it was their own.  you actually lowered my opinion = of them even further.

                Rich

                  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d47f65$1@w3.nls.net...
                  Oh give me a break, these guys single handedly =
destroyed NT's security reputation.

                  Hell they were the reason for the "information =
anarchy" program to silence the security lists.

                  Geo.=20
                    "Rich" <@> wrote in message =
news:42d36801$1@w3.nls.net...
                       An extraordinary one.  I suspect there isn't a =
significant difference between what they could do and what you could do =
taking advantage of published information.  The only thing remarkable = about
these folks is that they publish press releases putting the public = at risk to
promote themselves for financial gain.

                    Rich

                      "John Beckett" =
<FirstnameSurname@compuserve.com.omit> wrote in message =
news:rcl6d1hegtubg74l7fc4t8e0haom1kvkrc@4ax.com...
                      "Rich" <@> wrote in message =
news:<42d3503e$1@w3.nls.net>:
                      >    You should remember that this is true only in =
george's imagination.

                      Perhaps the 95% is an exaggeration. But there have =
been many examples (I
                      think starting with the IIS debacles) that show =
that eeye could have owned
                      an extremely large number of computers if =
Microsoft had not changed its
                      "release when it's good enough" attitude.

                      John

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The thread I remember was =
mike miller=20
and/or tony claiming that it was impossible to connect safely with = Windows
2000=20
and both you and I responding that it is possible.&nbsp; It's even = easier
with=20
Windows XP.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, it wouldn't be =
a bad idea=20
for ISPs such as nls.net to protect their customers though given your =
stated=20
position of it being good for machines to be infected that might explain = why
you=20
might not do so.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>Rich</DIV>
<DIV></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote=20
  in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:42d6c173@w3.nls.net">news:42d6c173@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So every time someone reinstalls and =
goes on the=20
  internet, what happens that they become infected before they can get =
to=20
  windows update? Didn't we just have a thread on what you have to do to =
get to=20
  windowsupdate and patch without getting wormed first?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I mean if you can't get patched =
before getting=20
  wormed, that's pretty defective in my book.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
    =
href=3D"news:42d69cd7@w3.nls.net">news:42d69cd7@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Your car analogy is a =
bad=20
    one.&nbsp; Cars are recalled to the dealer, not the factory, because =
the=20
    consumer can't apply fixes at home.&nbsp; Software doesn't work that =

    way.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:42d68fad$2@w3.nls.net">news:42d68fad$2@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Providing copies of windows in =
the box that=20
      are not fully patched should be proof enough. If MS were a car =
company,=20
      they would have to issue a recall every time there was a critical =
update=20
      released.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
        =
href=3D"news:42d5f07d@w3.nls.net">news:42d5f07d@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; So please give an =
example of=20
        irresponsible pr from Microsoft.&nbsp; The 5 year old q&amp;a to =
which=20
        you linked is not an example.&nbsp; Since you are trying to =
compare this=20
        to the irresponsible self-serving pr from eeye, you should find =
a=20
        comparable example such as providing the instructions necessary =
to=20
        create malware like that eeye provides.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
        style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A=20
          href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote =
in message=20
          <A=20
          =
href=3D"news:42d5ed41@w3.nls.net">news:42d5ed41@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Microsoft doesn't promote =
malware, they=20
          do however use lots of irresponsible self-serving =
pr.</FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stuff like this line of =
bullshit then=20
          taking 188 days to patch a remote root anonymous exploit <A=20
          =
href=3D"http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/Features/2001/Oct01/10-03secur=
ityqa.mspx">http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/Features/2001/Oct01/10-03s=
ecurityqa.mspx</A></FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
          <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
          style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
            <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
            =
href=3D"news:42d5457f@w3.nls.net">news:42d5457f@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Give me =
example of=20
            a&nbsp;Microsoft pr, say a page on <A=20
            href=3D"http://www.microsoft.com">www.microsoft.com</A>, =
that provides=20
            the information needed for someone to create malware like =
eeye=20
            does.</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; By interesting =
I mean=20
            intelectually interesting.&nbsp; As for understanding, I =
think you=20
            confuse disagreement with and understanding of.&nbsp; It's a =
common=20
            flaw.</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
            style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
              <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A=20
              href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; =
wrote in=20
              message <A=20
              =
href=3D"news:42d51209$2@w3.nls.net">news:42d51209$2@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
              <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't have a problem =
with their=20
              self-serving irresponsible pr any more than I do with =
microsofts=20
              irresponsible self-serving pr, that's a hangup that seems =
to be=20
              unique to you.</FONT></DIV>
              <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As for interesting, you =
appear to be=20
              a programmer not a hacker so why would you find anything =
to do=20
              with hacking interesting? You've proven several times that =
you=20
              don't even understand the hacker mindset.</FONT></DIV>
              <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
              <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
              style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
                <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
                =
href=3D"news:42d4bd97@w3.nls.net">news:42d4bd97@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
                <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; You =
clearly buy=20
                into&nbsp;their self-serving irresponsible pr more than =
I=20
                do.&nbsp; I was a bit surprised when you stated a few =
messages=20
                back that they steal the ideas for the vulnerabilities =
from=20
                others and take credit for themselves.&nbsp; While they =
do not=20
                do much interesting, I had at least though it was their=20
                own.&nbsp; you actually lowered my opinion of them even=20
                further.</FONT></DIV>
                <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
                <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
                style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
                  <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A=20
                  =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote in=20
                  message <A=20
                  =
href=3D"news:42d47f65$1@w3.nls.net">news:42d47f65$1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
                  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oh give me a break, =
these guys=20
                  single handedly destroyed NT's security=20
                  reputation.</FONT></DIV>
                  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hell they were the =
reason for the=20
                  "information anarchy"&nbsp;program to silence the =
security=20
                  lists.</FONT></DIV>
                  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Geo.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
                  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
                    <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
                    =
href=3D"news:42d36801$1@w3.nls.net">news:42d36801$1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
                    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; An =
extraordinary=20
                    one.&nbsp; I suspect there isn't a significant =
difference=20
                    between what they could do and&nbsp;what you could =
do taking=20
                    advantage of published information.&nbsp; The only =
thing=20
                    remarkable about these folks is that they publish =
press=20
                    releases putting the public at risk to promote =
themselves=20
                    for financial gain.</FONT></DIV>
                    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
                    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
                    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
                      <DIV>"John Beckett" &lt;<A=20
                      =
href=3D"mailto:FirstnameSurname@compuserve.com.omit">FirstnameSurname@com=
puserve.com.omit</A>&gt;=20
                      wrote in message <A=20
                      =
href=3D"news:rcl6d1hegtubg74l7fc4t8e0haom1kvkrc@4ax.com">news:rcl6d1hegtu=
bg74l7fc4t8e0haom1kvkrc@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>"Rich"=20
                      &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
                      =
href=3D"news:<42d3503e$1@w3.nls.net">news:&lt;42d3503e$1@w3.nls.net</A>&g=
t;:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
                      You should remember that this is true only in =
george's=20
                      imagination.<BR><BR>Perhaps the 95% is an =
exaggeration.=20
                      But there have been many examples (I<BR>think =
starting=20
                      with the IIS debacles) that show that eeye could =
have=20
                      owned<BR>an extremely large number of computers if =

                      Microsoft had not changed its<BR>"release when =
it's good=20
                      enough"=20
                =
attitude.<BR><BR>John<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQU=
OTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BL=
OCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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