Text 932, 145 rader
Skriven 2006-05-29 15:36:00 av Robert E Starr JR (1378.babylon5)
Ärende: Re: Atheists: America's m
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"Paul Harper" <paul@harper.net> wrote in message 
news:lj1m72ddd0ptmg160fpodnunkrh3emt9sj@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 29 May 2006 14:32:47 +0000 (UTC), "Carl"
> <cengman7@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I don't think that you have to "evolve" beyond religion, politics, etc.
>
> We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I see exactly that as
> fundamental and crucial to the survival of us as a species and all
> those other species on the planet we will take with us during our exit
> fall.

I'm with Carl.  There will always be differences between people.

The trick is being adult enough about them to not get hot and bothered by 
them.

Eliminate one kind of difference something else will take its place.  Look 
at prejudice's twin, anxiety.  We in the First World do not need to worry 
about getting ourselves fed, so we have evolved a more advanced and 
sophisticated set of mortality fears.


>>There's nothing wrong with a belief system as long as you don't try to
>>impose yours on me and I don't try to impose mine on you.  We're never 
>>going
>>to completely agree on everything, nor would it be healthy for us to do 
>>so.
>
> Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. [It is my belief that] We only
> have a limited amount of time left when we can afford the luxury of an
> overly self-centred existence. "I" *has* to have a limited shelf life
> now. We are going to have to ditch all of that and start becoming a
> lot more wider-focused. In between AIDS, assorted health pandemics,
> global warming and various energy crises that are here or looming, the
> "I'm alright Jack" approach to existence is an evolutionary dead end.

30 years ago, people were fretting about the imminent onset of the next ice 
age.

Right now, the truth is that we simply don't know.  Our understanding of 
global climate is still too limited, allowing politics to insert itself into 
science.

Historically, people create gods to fill the gaps labelled "we don't know." 
That's worth remembering when listening to debate on global warming.


> The sooner we all realise we're in this mess together and start
> thinking together and equally about resolving it the better.

See above.


> Sadly, I doubt we're capable of it to any meaningful degree outside of
> fiction. There are too many people too entrenched in their separate
> powerbases to allow such a utopia to exist. "We're all equal, but I'm
> more equal than you are" to paraphrase someone who knew a lot about
> the topic.
>
>>People need to understand that the the people on the "other" side of any
>>fence may have good reasons for being there.  We might disagree with them,
>>but that doesn't make the reasons invalid or the other person bsd or even
>>wrong".   Their reasons are every bit as compelling (from their side) as
>>ours are for us....and there aren't going to be many instances in which 
>>even
>>two people are always going to be on the same side of the fence across
>>multiple issues.  The same people on the other side of one fence on one
>>issue might be on your side when it comes to another issue.

Useful to consdiser when next one hears how evil conservatism/liberalism is.


> Fences are great. Kinda like levees. Nature has a way of dealing with
> fences! Much better not to have them - or need them - and to be in
> tune with Nature in the first place.

Nature needs intelligent tweaking from time to time.  Unfortunately we give 
into the temptation of micromanaging.


>>I don't necessarily blame any particular power base.  People need to make 
>>up
>>their own mind rather than relinquishing their right to having their own
>>opinions.  A power structure will always take advantage of the people that
>>let them.
>
> Absolutely. It takes a considerable amount of strength to withstand
> the power structures. In between the onslaughts of media, politics,
> religion and commerce, the forces reigned against individual thought
> and action are immense. It's also insidious - quite frequently those
> collections of people who consider themselves lucky to have a lot of
> individual freedom are among those with least. They just don't know
> it.

Some people may even think of themselves as free thinkers as they happily 
parrot a party line.


> Usually when such an individual (or group of individuals [I am aware
> of the oxymoron here]) is detected, the entrenched powerbases take
> active steps to convert, remove or destroy them.

Often demnizing them if they proved difficult to destroy.


>>Even that power structure will usually think they are doing
>>something for the benefit of those people.  Everyone rationalizes their 
>>own
>>views.
>
> That's the PR view of powerbases: "We're doing it for you, honest".
> The reality from within the oligarchies is somewhet different.
>
> Sadly, the Peter Principle holds as true today as it did when the book
> was written, which is why we're in such a mess. They're powerful,
> ambitious.... and incompetent.

Sometimes, competent is worse.  RE: Hitler before 1942, Stalin.


-- 
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent


"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."


"Spirituality without science has no mind.

Science without spirituality has no heart."

-Methuselah Jones
                                                                       
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