Text 1296, 179 rader
Skriven 2004-10-26 21:09:05 av Björn Forsström (2:203/614.61)
   Kommentar till text 1203 av Robert Couture (1:229/2000)
Ärende: "Proof" (was: FidoNews 21:38 [09/09]: Fidonews Information)
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 BF>> GM didn't ask the government (my country) if they could buy SAAB and the
 BF>> factory was aldready built and the jobs was also aldready there. They
 BF>> bought it because they thoght they could make more money on it.

 RC> I think you will find that you are completely off base here.  Your
 RC> government would have had first hand dealing in the purchase.  Don't you
 RC> have the equivalent of the Securities Exchange Commision?

Perhaps they knew about it but what could they do?
We have, what I know, only laws against companys getting a monopoly position
and this was nothing like that since we also have Volvo which is Ford own.
So I don't think I'm completly off base here.

 BF>> And when they do they should take the custom and follow the rules in that
 BF>> country.

 RC> Why?  And how did you come to the conclusion that the rules were not
 RC> followed.  Customs and traditions are not something enforcable.  Only the
 RC> law.

Oh, sorry for putting a = between "law" and "rule".
They have tryed to change the "law" then and the union had a hard time to make
them understand this.

 BF>> Not introduce American laws and conduct one-sided.

 RC> Sorry?  In what way?  How can the American company make law?  If they
 RC> lobbied for a law and your government enacted it, then blame your
 RC> government for not having the will of the people in mind.

They tryed to cut down salary and increase working hours and fire unwanted
personal at their own will without asking the union and that's against the LAW
here.

 RC> Explain conduct one-sided?

See above.

 BF>> And who's to blaim for the present situatoin? That must be on the
 BF>> American GM bosses.

 RC> How can you be sure?  It could have been the European bosses running the
 RC> pant that made the miscalculations.  Maybe they were wasting money left,
 RC> right and center?

Now who is completly off base?
SAAB has been runed by Americans for at least the past 5 years.
Untill recently it was Greg Deveson and the chairman Peter Augustsson is
merely a face for the media. Peter can't do a thing without checking with Greg,
or the other GM bosses first.
Trust me on this.

 RC> Maybe the only thing to blame is world economics.

The workers at SAAB have seen this so why not the GM bosses and just don't
blame it on world economics.

 BF>> They have miscalculated the market, taken the wrong decisions, not
 BF>> delivred the products the market want's, miscalculated the threats from
 BF>> Asia, aso. aso. Had they done their job properly we wouldn't be in this
 BF>> mess, not in the
 BF>> States and not here in Europe.

 RC> You are oversimplifying things.  There are factors that neithert you nor I
 RC> would know.

But you can't dismiss what I'm saying.
Why is then Volvo going so well? Is it so that they make what people want?
At a price that people want to pay.

 RC> Not saying this is the case, but the blame cannot be entire laid upon the
 RC> shoulders of any one entity when it comes to world economics.

This can't only be blamed on world economy. You must even blame the
companys for not making what people want and clearly the GM bosses
can't do either.
So far I haven't heard of any lay-off in Japan or Korea.

 RC> Not buying American cars is almost as bad as not buying Japanese cars :)
 RC> There being so much merging going on.

Have you any information about WV merging with someone?

 BF>> The towns we are talking about here have about 50 000 and if GM lay-off
 BF>> 12 000 the real figure is about the double since many small companys are
 BF>> subcontractos.

 RC> Things like this are indeed sad.  But don't think your situation is unique
 RC> in the world.

I've never said so.

 BF>> It's not a bias against the U.S. but they think they are the world
 BF>> dominator since they are the most powerful country on Earth but it isn't

 RC> It certainly is so.  For now.

No. It's bias against the GM bosses.

 BF>> so. They are exactly the same shit as the rest of this world. They say

 RC> So you think that way of the world?  Even your own country.  That is a
 RC> very pessimistic view you have :)

We also have our shit people. Take the leaders at Skandia and ABB.
We also have a bribe-trial to look forward to at the Systembolaget whitch is
the State-owned monopoly for booze and also a trial against union-people
at SAAB (oops) that have been to porno-clubs in Belgium and played and
bought dildos and sent the half million SEK invoice to the union aso. aso.

 BF>> they want to uphold the laws but are breaking them just like any other.

 RC> The breaking of the law is not just an American thing.  Laws are broken by
 RC> governments around the world.

But at SAAB it was the GM bosses.

 BF>> Take a look at how they treat the prisoners at Guantanamo and in the
 BF>> prisons in Iraq. Just like they do in Cuba or anywhare else in the 3:d
 BF>> world.

 RC> The actions of the few do not reflect the actions of the many.

Doesn't it in some way?

 RC> Besides.  What about how Saddam treated prisoners, or, for that matter
 RC> Iran, Afghanistan, Cuba, etc, etc.  And I am only talking about domestic
 RC> crimes, not prisoners of war.  No, that is not an excuse to mistreat
 RC> anyone, however, if you look at how America treats its prisoners compared
 RC> to how Iraqi's own domestic prisoners were treated by Saddam's regime, you
 RC> will find that the Americans are much more civil.

I don't think that Saddam had signed the Geneva convention about how to treat
POW but haven't USA?

 RC> There are always bad people that will abuse their power.  What country
 RC> they live in is irrelevent.

Sure. Even GWB!

 BF>> Have you seen Fahrenheit 9/11?

 RC> Yes.  It was nothing but propoganda by the opposition party.  It was
 RC> filled with semi-facts and distorted facts.  The American are in a war
 RC> zone.  Not everyone is going to be treated fairly.  Nor are they going to
 RC> take risks by inviting disaster by being all nicey-nicey.

Propaganda my ass.
With your reason I say that the concentration-camps in Germany during WW2
was also propaganda if I choose to believe the new-nazis that claim that it
never
happend. All films are pure propaganda made by the allied.

 RC> No.  Michael Moore used his position as a director to bolster his party's
 RC> anti-Bush stance.  It certainly held great bias and was not intended to
 RC> inform, but to brainwash.

How come that even a Swedish news-team have come to the same conclusion
by just reading documents and talking to other Americans?

 RC> Just like the Third Reich propoganda was design to give the German people
 RC> a sense of hope when Hitler knew there was none.  Just like the hatred of
 RC> Jews was introduced and the concept that an Aryan was a superior specices
 RC> of human.

That's no propaganda, that's facts. See what I mean?

 RC> So?  You get what you pay for.  But the costs of correcting mistakes are
 RC> still less than the wages they used to pay.  I don like the outsourcing,
 RC> but that is the facts of world economics.

 RC> Don't like it?  Complain to your government.  Not that it will do much
 RC> good.

It doesn't do any good, trying to explain it to you either.

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 * Origin: . (2:203/614.61)