Text 18391, 225 rader
Skriven 2005-12-11 02:52:00 av FRANK SCHEIDT (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST
Ärende: Name-Calling
====================
-=> Quoting Michiel Van Der Vlist to Frank Scheidt <=-

 MVDV>> Vlist is difficult to pronounce?
 
 > More difficult than "List"  The "Vl" part is uncommon though,
 > of course, it exists.   Phonetically "travel" has  "vl" sound.

 MVDV>> Hmmm... the man from Newy York that called me the day before
 MVDV>> yesterday to lure me into some investment scheme din't seem
 MVDV>> to have that problem.
 
 > I suspect some of the most efficient Americans are those
 > engaged in criminal activities ... sad but true.  It's amazing
 > what some crooks can accomplish.

 MVDV> A crook? It was not my impression that this investment scheme was
 MVDV> something illegal. 

I suspect he was calling from what is often termed a "boiler 
shop".  There will be a room of aggressive callers whose sole 
purpose it is to get someone to send them money for some 
non-existent product, often stock.  After a while, and the law 
gets too close, they simply move their operation to a different 
location and start all over ...

 MVDV> The man was very agressive. Didn't let me put a word
 MVDV> in edge wise. 

That was probably because they typically read from a script and 
talk very rapidly so as to waste as little time on you as 
possible before seeking a *new* sucker.

 MVDV> Only when he asked "fax or e-mail" did I get the chance
 MVDV> to say something. he wouldn't take no for a answser. Finally after I
 MVDV> told him three times he got the message and said "buy dude" and broke
 MVDV> the connection. 

 MVDV> Speaking about rude...

 MVDV> But not illegal....

Not until you sent him some money ...

 MVDV>> I never heard native English speakers complain. But.. I know better
 MVDV>> than to argue wit a native speaker, so if you say so, I will accept
 MVDV>> that at face value.
 
 > Complain about pronouncing your name?  I wouldn't *expect* any
 > complaints to be made.  After all, we're used to seeing names
 > of people with Eastern Europe ancestry who have complex names.
 > Polish names, for example, seem to lack enough vowels, yet
 > I've *never* heard anyone complain about that, even people reading
 > out a list of names with something like "Wlkrzowicz".  They'll
 > try to pronounce it, with the owner usually correcting them.

 MVDV> So what is the problem with "Vlist" then?

The problem lies in the pronunciation of the "Vl" part.  While a 
name "Vladimir" is known it's far from common and I doubt that 
most people would make the connection WRT the pronunciation.

 MVDV>> But then I would not go for "List". If "vlist" is not good enough I
 MVDV>> might as well go for something completely different. Like "Clinton".
 MVDV>> ;-)
 
 > I merely suggested "List" since I know people with that name.

 MVDV> Ok.
 
 >> When immigrants change their names it's almost *always*
 >> to a name which is both easy to pronounce and to spell.  When
 >> *my* family immigrated here they didn't anglicize the name
 >> obviously.

 MVDV>> Obviously. I wonder what made them select the name in the first
 MVDV>> place...
 
 > In German, it has the meaning of separating or dividing

 MVDV> In that case it originally was "Scheide" and was mangled up over the
 MVDV> years. There is a german word "Scheit" which menas "block of wood". But
 MVDV> "Scheidt" with "dt" at the end does not exist in German.

During WWII, my brother had his picture taken in front of a 
building in Germany which had the name "SCHEIDT" in concrete over 
the door.

 MVDV> In Dutch "scheit" mean "shit".
 
In German it's "scheiss" ... which reminds me of a story a German 
prof told us one time.  This took place immediately following 
WWII when most of the students were ex-soldiers.  The student 
wanted to say, in German, that they had *shot* through Germany.  
However, in place of the proper "Wir schiessen durch Deutschland" he 
said, "Wir scheissen durch Deuthschland" ... actually that, too, 
might have been appropriate ... heh heh heh ...

 > and is applied to someone living near a "separating line", i.e., a
 > border.

 MVDV> Or a watershed.
 
True ...

 > I suppose my long-forgotten ancestors lived near the
 > border of some country.  Maybe France since my father was born
 > near the French border.

 MVDV> I think the watershed is more likely. Scheide is used for natural
 MVDV> divisions in the landscape. The regular German word for a politcal
 MVDV> boundery is "Grenze". 
 
True ... but meanings change through the ages ...

MVDV> [ addressing people by their last name only ]
 
 > I'm puzzled why such usage in Europe would be considered insulting.

 MVDV> I thought I had already explained that: in the past it was used to
 MVDV> address someone lower in the pecking order. A landlord addressing his
 MVDV> valet or an employer adressing an employee.

OK, I probably have just forgotten that ...

 MVDV> Adressing an *equal* ths way was an insult as it implied that the
 MVDV> caller considered the callee his inferior.

 MVDV> These day it is considered politically incorrect to stress inequality.
 MVDV> So adressing someone with his last name only is a no-no.
 
That makes sense ...

 > After all, addressing you as "Vlist" *is* using your name.

 MVDV> No, that is using an abriviation of my name.
 
 > And one's *complete* name is seldom used.

 MVDV> Here the prefixes are NEVER ommited. So addressing me as just "Vlist"
 MVDV> would be a double insult.

 MVDV> Well, almost. There are always exceptions. It *can* be a term of
 MVDV> endearment. My mother sometimes called me "Vlist" when she had
 MVDV> something of importance to say to me. Very occasionally she still does.
 MVDV> But then mothers are special aren't they?
 
Definitely ... the one person on earth who probably has your best 
interests at heart ...

 > There's a movie star (from years back) with the name Van Johnson,
 > but "Van", I suppose, is considered his *given* name as I've never
 > seen any other first name for him.

 MVDV> How about "Van Halen"?

 MVDV> Or "van Helsen" ;-)
 
 >>> So if someone comes here from Europe wanting to insult me for
 >>> some reason, then addresses me by my last name he'd be mighty
 >>> disappointed ... heh heh heh ...

 MVDV>>> The reverse is worse. Making an innocent remark that comes
 MVDV>>> across as an insult. When you ever come to The Netherlands,
 MVDV>>> I advise against addressing people by their last name *only*.
 >
 > Many years ago I had a man from Holland working for me during
 > the summer.  He was a student in the Netherlands.  His name was
 > Herb Slaats.

 MVDV> Forgive me for being arrogant, but I suspect "Herb" was not his real
 MVDV> name, nor the name that he used in The Netherlands. "Herbert" is a
 MVDV> common name here, but I have never anyone hear abbreviating it to
 MVDV> "Herb". Not here. I think he followed that American custom to fit in.

His name *was* Herbert but quickly became Herb.  He was 
well-liked here and fit in very well.

 MVDV> That does not mean that names are *never* abbriviated here. In fact it
 MVDV> is quit common. "Johannes" is commonly called "Hans" or "Johan".
 MVDV> "Diederik" is called "Dirk" and "Hendrik" is often called "Henk". But
 MVDV> not "Herb", never heard it. These customs are difficult to explain.
 
 > We always called *him* "Herb" so he wasn't inadvertently
 > insulted while working here.

 MVDV> When he came for the first time did he say something like "call me
 MVDV> Herb"? 

I don't recall.  Probably not ...

 > OTOH he used to give a hilarious imitation of how the average
 > Netherlands citizen viewed a "typical" American.

 MVDV> You should hear what we think the average American sees a "typical"
 MVDV> Dutchman. In wooden shoes standing before a windmill...

... and don't forget the *tulips* ... heh heh heh ...
 
 > That, if taken seriously, would have been considered a strong
 > insult, however we all thought it was funny.

 MVDV> One should not take these acts serious....
 
 > So whether a given act is insulting depends largely upon the
 > opinion of the "victim" ...

 MVDV> Of course...
 
 >> I seldom do that in any event ...

 MVDV>> You might do it accidentally as you are unaware that it is
 MVDV>> insultive.
 
 > True ...

 MVDV> But now you have been warned. ;)

My life is such now, that I seldom meet any foreigners so I'll 
probably never have to make use of that knowledge.

... "They go in, but they do not come out." Spock

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