Text 19931, 150 rader
Skriven 2005-12-25 13:51:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 19884 av SHANNON TALLEY (1:275/311)
Ärende: Editorial
=================
 > Although the press is still very negative, things are improving.

It does not look that way at all. Every day two or three dozen people get
killed in Iraq. And it goes on and on and on. Day after day. It isn't even news
here any more. Just one or two lines in the news... :-(

And of course that' sonly the official number. Who knows how many never make it
into the reports...

 > During the time I've spent in Iraq,

And that was how long ago?

 > I've talked to shop keepers, dress makers, children, adults,
 > old people, each have their own story.

And you believe they will tell you what they really think? Oh, c'mon, they must
have learned THAT from Saddam. Tell em what they want to hear.

You don't speak their language and you probably never went out on the streets
alone and unarmed.

To get people to confide in you, you have to speak their language and mix with
them as if you were one of them. You can never do that, so you will never get
the real story out of them.

 > There were some who were quite comfortable with Saddam in
 > power, but they were always of that "class" that associated
 > with him and his ilk and looked down on those
 > in lower classes &  /  or contributed to the corruption.

That happens all over he world.

 > There were members of the police force that would consistently
 > stop by shops (before liberation) and shake down the owners
 > for money -- and there was nothing they could do about it.

And you think the corruption is going to stop just like that?

 > If the shop owners didn't give up their money, they
 > were imprisoned for long periods of time or until their family
 > paid a ransom.  We've shown that much of the money they took -- in
 > most cases -- went right to one of Saddam's sons.  Teachers
 > couldn't teach anything relevant -- it was all made up BS by
 > the hard liners.  They didn't want children to read!

That is just plain propaganda. Before Gulf War I Iraq was a prosperous country
with good education and health care.

 > We are trying to change that and provide a foundation for
 > normal society.  There are hundreds of stories like this that
 > you consistently ignore!

Yes, I do that, I try to ignore propaganda.

 > Even the killing of the Kurds!!

I have never denied the killing of the Kurds.

I did vent some doubts about who did it though. There were other parties with
good motives around you know.

 > You keep referring to the American's killing Iraqi's...

And you keep forgetting that not only 2100 American soldiers have died since
the invasion but also tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians...

 > Fact is, you and I won't agree on this -- ever.  You won't go
 > over there and see things for yourself

There is no pint in going there myself. There is nothing useful I can do, I'd
just waste my time and maybe my life.

 > but you just sit in your chair and pass judgment on
 > the situation without any firsthand knowledge

Nobody has firsthand knowledge. Right now you are just as far from it as I am.

 > -- which is why I keep referring to you as being ignorant
 > in this matter.

I read papers, I watch television just like you. If I am ignorant, so are you.

 > I've spent more time over there than I care to.

From the back seat of an armoured vehicle?

 > The people of that country are wonderful -- and there are many
 > whom I miss very much.  Unfortunately, without any internet
 > connectivity, and a horrible mail system,

And how come there is no internet connectivity and a decent mail system?

>> Show me when and where.

 > You'd have to go to Iraq like I did and ask....  But, you
 > won't -- so drop it.

In other words, you have no answer.

>> > If they had given up, it wouldn't have been necessary.
>> "They"? Who are "they"? You just said "they" asked for it.
>> If "they" asked for it, why would "they" not have "given up"?

 > The regime.  There is more than just one person over there..

And why would you expect them to just "give up"?

When the Netherlands was occupied during WWII, we did not just give up. There
were resistance groups all over the place. Had Hitler won they would have gone
down in history as insurgents and terrorists. Now they are heros.

When a countrty is invaded, nobody "just gives up". There is always resistance.
Why did yyou expect it to be different in Iraq?

>> > However, FREEDOM always come at the price of blood.

>> And so does slavery and murder. Bloodshed is not proof of
>> a just cause.

 > Yep, it sure does.

No, it is not. if bloodshed were proof of a good cause, then the killing of the
Kurds was a good cause too. Lots of blood shed there...

 > Thank god

God? Why not Allah? The Muslim religion is the dominant religion over there.
Plus that the Christian God was against the Iraq invasion. Or so his spokesman
on earth Pop John Paul told us.

 > we put an end to the enslavement of the people,

You may have helped them from the fire into the frying pan...

(Or was that the other way around, I'll never get this right again..)

 > and now if we can simply get rid of the last of the
 > folks who keep sliding across the borders from Iran &
 > Syria we'll be done...

Yeah, you keep telling yourself external influences is the problem. I suppose
that came from the same intelligence that told us about the WMD's...

Dream on.

Cheers, Michiel

---
 * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)