Text 20312, 180 rader
Skriven 2005-12-28 22:50:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 20241 av Carol Shenkenberger (6:757/1)
Ärende: Lack of Gratitude
=========================
Hello Carol,

 >> Frank, why do you persist in so much Europe bashing?

MvdV>> Because he is a troll.

 > That or misguided.

He is now responding to you too. I'll let you judge for yourself...

 > All I know is he's upsetting folks more than even Roy

He is different. Contrary to Roy he avoids the ad hominem.

 > does with his tired old 'nazi' comments that most of now just
 > ignore rather than spin him up (if you didnt catch it, he sent
 > another one of them comments to Ward).

Yes, I noticed. And I suppose you noticed the swipe about "just a radio
operator who lets  other does the dirty work"....

MvdV>> I just reread my aunt's diary. She lived in Oosterbeek during the batt
MvdV>> of Arnhem. In September 1944 she was right in the middle of a war zone

 > I'd love some excerpts from that if you would be willing?

I'd be willing. Actually my plan is to put the whole ting on my web site but
there are a few problems to overcome. The original is in Dutch and I do have
the text of the Dutch version of the book on disk. There is an English
translation, but for that I only have the printed version. I don't think there
ever was a machine readable version of the English text. I'd have to find
someone to do the typing. Is will be a seizable job but it is doable. The Dutch
text is 260 kB.

But... I first have to clear things with the copyright holder. There is no
point in spending many, many hours on it if I am not sure I can publish.

My aunt left the copyright of the book to my sister. And my sister is being
difficult about it. I don;t know why, maybe she is under the misguided
impression that she can still make a lot of money out of it. Anyway, I haven't
got permission to publish. Yet...

 > I beleive you've made reference to starving folks, possibly
 > eating tulip bulbs to stay alive?

Yes, people ate everything that was at all edible and that they could get their
hands on. Tulip bulbs were indeed eaten. Not in Oosterbeek however, but my
other grandparents who lived in The Hague have indeed eaten tulip bulbs during
the winter of 1944.

 > God has graced my life in that I've never been in any real
 > hardship.

Neither have I. I did have some health problems in my youth due to the shortage
of certain foods after the war.

 >> happen anyplace as some people are just that way and will
 >> take any opportunity they can to get ahead,

MvdV>> Conditions during the winter of 1944 were very bad. People were starvi
MvdV>> They walked 20 km to get three or four patatoes.

 > That seems hard though as they'd expend more energy than the
 > potatoes would give them unless they were really big ones.

I have been wondering about that too.

 >> I'm not saying it should be forgotten,

MvdV>> No, it should not be forgotten. But it is time we started treating it
MvdV>> for what it is: history. I am sick and tired of being held responsible
MvdV>> for what happened before I was born. Nothing that I can say or do will
MvdV>> change history. I really have my belly full of this "you should be gra
MvdV>> we saved your ass from Hitler" crap. To the best of my knowledge it is
MvdV>> even true, but even if it were, I just don't want to hear it any more.

 > I hear you and agree.  I see no reason why you should feel
 > 'grateful' to me because my father fought in the battle of the
 > bulge (Born of german parents on Parris Island just after
 > crossing, fluent german, radio operator who translated what
 > the germans were saying for the US troops).  Why should you?
 > He was just one of many people who were doing as they were
 > told, and as he thought best.

Now, when you tell it like that, I can't help feeling *respect* for your
father.

 > The only time he mentioned it to me was to say 'I was a small
 > cog in a big machine and pretty much did what I was told'.  He
 > also said he was greatful to get out alive.  Because my Mom
 > left him when I was 2, I barely knew him and I have not that
 > much to say on how much he might have told me, had i grown up
 > with him.  My sister who went to live with him when she was
 > 15, said it was not mentioned much other than he refused to
 > have a gun in his house and once tossed out a boyfriend of
 > her's because he wanted to take her hunting.

Just like the people here. Those who were there don't very much like to talk
about it.

 > He had a ribbon for a sharpshooter.

MvdV>> I have had enough of it. It happened before I was born, it is history.

MvdV>> The Germans are no longer our enemy, they are now our neighbours and f
MvdV>> We have to move on. This constant digging in the past stands in the wa
MvdV>> of the future.

 > Exactly.  It's over.  While I would be curious to know what my
 > father enountered, it is too late.  (Rest in Peace Dad, 2001).

Same here. My father died nearly two years ago. He once told me
how after the failure of the battle of Arnhem he tried to cross the river Rhine
to get to the liberated southern part but failed. And that's all he ever said
about it. My mother who lived in the Hauge was a bit more talkative. She told
me about the tulip bulbs and all the other things they did to get food to get
them through the winter.

 > This type of rememberance enchances us all, but the blame is
 > out of place this long ago later.

Indeed.

 > The most interesting angle to this was when my brother and I
 > got jobs with the government.  Took a very LONG time to get
 > our clearances. See, they took all the records (freely given,
 > had little) and had to track the relatives we had who were
 > then all living pretty much on the other side of the 'wall'.
 > The only thing we were told back was 'it was interesting, and
 > obviously no contact' and a small bit of family tree as well
 > as an inheritance of some 2,000$ each for the hotel that was
 > used by Hitler at one stage and is now a supermarket (bulding
 > demolished long ago).

Interesting indeed....


 >> but it's hardly something I'd expect strong feelings about
 >> from those born in 1960 and later and those folks now have
 >> often grown kids (1960-1965 at least) and grand kids on the way.

MvdV>> Not only should we not expect strong feelings, we should not encourage
MvdV>> those feelings. We should not burden the next generation with the atro
MvdV>> of the past. They have their own future to make.

 > Correct.  Charlotte knows a bit of this history, as far as it
 > goes but as you can tell, there is no 'angst' passed on with it.

Very good.

FS>>> After all, whom would *you* believe -- your parents/grandparents
FS>>> or some stranger from overseas??

 >> I'd believe my parents and grandparents, especially if the
 >> stranger from overseas was bashing my land and people.

MvdV>> Of course. And it is not just my parents and grand parents, it is also
MvdV>> the historians here that tell us a story different from that what Fran
MvdV>> and others from across tell us.

 > Frank seems to be fogetting some aspects, like omitting the
 > Canadians. My own knowledge of history is not that good.  Fact
 > is 'history' is a lighter subject I think in USA schools?

Frank is 80+ years old. At the end of WWII he was past schoolgoing age. So
wherever he learned of WWII history, it was not at school.

MvdV>> The more they demand gratitude, the less they will get.

MvdV>> You Carol are wise to generally avoid these discussions.

 > Hehe well, I generally do.  But, even I can see Frank's
 > bashings and have to speak up.

And now that you did, you too became a target...

Cheers, Michiel

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