Text 36263, 185 rader
Skriven 2006-08-08 18:39:06 av Roy Witt (1:397/22)
  Kommentar till text 36208 av Carol Shenkenberger (6:757/1)
Ärende: CELEBRATION!
====================
08 Aug 06 18:42, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Roy Witt:

 FS>>> So *celebrate* this wonderful event!!

 CS>> What we, the USA folks did, was a bad thing but the only exoneration
 CS>> we have to say in these later generations (I was born 15 years
 CS>> later) is we didnt really know how bad it was then or how it would
 CS>> be that

 RW>> Shame on you. What we did was to save millions of lives and that
 RW>> means both sides. There's nothing bad about it. OTH, it wasn't
 RW>> anything to b celebrating about, but the date is noteworthy to many
 RW>> Americans. I wou

 CS> It's his 'celebration' I object to.

Why? The definition of the word seems to indicate that it could be done in
many different ways.

celebrate

v. celúeúbratúed, celúeúbratúing, celúeúbrates
v.tr.

1. To observe (a day or event) with ceremonies of respect, festivity, or
rejoicing. See Synonyms at observe.

The first suggestion, respect, could be done without rejoicing or
festivity. You don't know what Frank meant, until you ask him and let him
explain it.

And the Synonym 'observe' means; To be or become aware of, especially
through careful and directed attention; notice.

Among others.

 CS> You do not 'celebrate' the day you nuked another country.

You can, under the definition of the word and it's synonym, out of respect
for the dead.

 CS> You may ruefully realize it saved more lives than not using it, but
 CS> you do not celebrate it.

Maybe it was a poor choice of words on his part and you're too sensitive
to the idea because you're among those who were the victims and you have
always had a problem with Frank's opinions.

 CS> Celebrating VJ day is another thing, and I find no real offense at
 CS> that anymore than I do VE day.

It's not like anyone is going to be dancing in the streets as if some
great victory has been accomplished. I don't recall anyone doing that back
then and I do vaguely remember the demonstrations of happiness when the
surrender of Japan was announced.

 RW>> think that people should study their history a little closer if they
 RW>> t we Americans are the worst there is when it came to killing
 RW>> innocent m women and children. On the contrary, the facts of what
 RW>> the Japanese di

 CS> I didnt say we were the worst, but i refuse to 'celebrate' the worst
 CS> we have done.

Then don't...

 CS>> They (general populace) didnt know it would poison the land and the
 CS>> people for generations to come.  That was only learned later.

 RW>> Only the scientists who worked on it knew and they were sworn to
 RW>> secre

 CS> Which does explain the general populace feel of this at the time when
 CS> it happened but we know better now.

We only had the atomic bomb for less than a month when it was used for
two purposes, to demonstrate it to the world as a deterent for further
conflict, as the Russkies would have done, had there not been that
deterent. The other was to try and save as many allied, and Japanese,
lives as possible. An invasion of Japan would have been more desasterous
than those two bombs, for both sides.

 CS> We can say 'it's over' and we can say 'it cost less lives than other
 CS> solutions' but to dance in the streets on the day we bombed them with
 CS> nukes, is just wrong now that we know what we have learned about the
 CS> aftermath.

Let's let Frank make an explanation of his post before passing judement.

 CS>> instead. Gather the origional aim was to hit here but cloud cover
 CS>> made it hard so they hit Nagasaki as secondary target vice the major
 CS>> ship building facility I am at now.

 RW>> All the targets chosen were for a military reason...there were
 RW>> factori in Nagasaki who made Mitsubishi parts for the Japense Zeros.
 RW>> Ball bear I believe.

 CS> Yes, it was the secondary target and they hit there.

There were 4 cities on the list. Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki and Niigata.

On the first mission, Hiroshima was the primary target, Kokura was the
secondary choice and Nagasaki the third.

On the second mission, Kokura was the primary target, and Nagasaki was the
backup. Niigata was too far away to be a practical third choice. Because
Nagasaki was on the opposite side of a Kyushu mountain range from Kokura,
military planners thought even if one city was fogged in, the other was
likely to be clear. They were correct in that assumption, as history bears
out.

 CS>> Indeed.  With that message of his, I part any company with Frank.  I
 CS>> am embarrased that he comes from my country.

 RW>> You shouldn't be. You should be sad that he thought it a day of
 RW>> celebration and nothing more. In his day, it was a day to celebrate.
 RW>> S

 CS> I am sad for exactly that.

 CS> When I think of this thread, I think of 9/11 and how we were treated
 CS> here by the local people.  Devastated, and our rental apartment owner
 CS> came to every single apartment (he owns quite a few) with Americans,
 CS> to tell us in person with a translator, how he felt for us in our
 CS> time of sorrow.  Very much almost 'samarai' in his politeness and
 CS> dressed in his best formal kimono (ok, name is other for the male
 CS> dress but you know what I mean). Every American here at that time
 CS> that I know of, had a visit like it.

I don't think anyone has ever said they were barbarians. IMO, they're the
most honorable people in Asia and their history also bears that out.

 CS> I'm still an American, but I could not look him in the face if I were
 CS> the type to 'celebrate' the death of his sister and mother the day we
 CS> took our bombs to Nagasaki.  (No, he didnt mention it, we were told
 CS> much later, perhaps 6 months later, of his personal history and that
 CS> he was 7 years old when it happened).

Which probably led to his demeanor at the news of 9/11...he knows what
it's like to lose so many loved one all at the same time.

 CS> If you dislike that I feel this way, well, we can 'just not bring it
 CS> up again' because on this one, you'll find out i'm more stubborn than
 CS> a mule and will not change.  I may change on many things, but this
 CS> isnt one of them.  I will never 'celebrate' the day we nuked Japan.

I never asked you to, all I suggested was to look at it from a different
viewpoint, put yourself in the shoes of those who experienced WW2 first
hand, or at least lived thru that time and have a different life
experience than you do.

 RW>> they're saying. Suffice to say that none of us are guilty for what
 RW>> our ancestors did during their lifetime. (unless they're Dossche' or
 RW>> Vlist

 CS> I'm not guilty either, but there's a sort of recognition thing of
 CS> 'wrongs done before your time' that people should not forget and
 CS> should try to avoid in the future.

Which doesn't seem to be the case, as history in urope is again going down
the same path with Nevel Chamberlain hand in hand...

 CS> My father fought in WWII.  Radio operator, Europe.  Born just as they
 CS> arrived here of first immigrant parents.  Fluent german.  I didnt get
 CS> much time with him as my parents split when I was 2 but the few
 CS> visits did talk of that time a little bit.  His comment was 'the
 CS> worst I did was shoot a person who had a gun aimed at me, never
 CS> dropped any bombs I have to have nightmares about now'. I know, he
 CS> meant that set. I just know...
 CS>                                        xxcarol

My father made it in time to spend 13 months in the aftermath of the war.
The Germans surrendered while he was on board a troop ship in the
Atlantic. I never figured him for a passionate man, but he told stories of
the suffereing of the people and the ways he helped them, in spite of his
orders. He was a guard at a German supply dump, where there was all kinds
of food and clothing that was denied the public. He left the gates
unlocked and turned his back as those in need entered and helped
themselves.

               R\%/itt


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