Text 44593, 205 rader
Skriven 2006-12-23 11:25:00 av bob klahn (1:275/311)
     Kommentar till en text av MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST
Ärende: Insults
===============

 bk>>>> Not. I know you don't live in this country, so you have not grown up
 bk>>>> in this culture. But that word is offensive in any context.

 MvdV>>> *Any* context? Hmmm....

 MvdV>>> So how do you tell your children not to use it? When you can not
 MvdV>>> even use it to tell them what word you are referring to?

 bk>>  By pointing out to them that it is offensive.

 MvdV>You would have to use it at least once to make known what
 MvdV>you are talking about....

 Yeah, and to explain to them why they shouldn't use it.

 ...

 bk>>  I wouldn't, but others would, and you are points behind in
 bk>>  defending yourself from the start.

 MvdV>Since I was never accused, I see no reason to go into
 MvdV>defence mode.

 Seems to me you were being accused.

 bk>>>> However, there is also a responsibility for those who do not
 bk>>>> live in the subject culture to accept the advice of those who do
 bk>>>> on matters of that culture.

 MvdV>>> Accept yes. Live up to it ....  maybe.

 bk>>  Give it your best shot.

 MvdV>In this particular case that may not be too difficult, but
 MvdV>be aware that respecting the one's culture may conflict
 MvdV>with respecting another one's culture. One can not please
 MvdV>everyone all of the time.

 Now I do believe that's a bit confused.

 bk>>>>  That word is always offensive.

 MvdV>>> I have some difficulty accepting that. I can accept that
 MvdV>>> it is always offending to *you*. Maybe even to everyone in
 MvdV>>> your subculture. But always for everyone in the US
 MvdV>>> culture? Hmmm... no, you willjave to give me a bit more
 MvdV>>> that just your say so.

 bk>>  It's not at all offensive to white racists, or maybe even black
 bk>>  racists.

 MvdV>Then how do you define "racist"? I suspect there is a
 MvdV>circular definition lurking around the corner....

 Could be. Racist is someone who hold's prejudice... negative
 preformed opinions... about a person because of his race.

 However, note, it is everyone's right to hold any opinion they
 like, and, in this country, to express that opinion. It is
 everyone else's right to call him on it. And if he acts on that
 prejudice he may get into a situation where the govt may
 intervene.

 bk>>  However, it's offensive to decent people. See, I know you from other
 bk>> echos, so I count you as one of the decent people.

 MvdV>What other echos would that be? I am not aware of any
 MvdV>other echo that we both have recently been active in.

 Oh? Do I have you confused with someone else? Do you have me
 confused? Are we all confused? I don't know.

 bk>>>>  The N-word is never acceptable in this country, and I doubt it
 bk>>>>  is in any other country. None that I know of.

 MvdV>>> Then you do not know all that much about other countries. It
 MvdV>>> certainly is not offensive in *any* context here. It mostly is, but
 MvdV>>> not always.

 bk>>  Why would an English language word be used there?

 MvdV>To converse with people who do not speak Dutch here?

 Then you would not be expected to know it's offensive. Unless so
 informed.

 One of the favorite jokes here is to teach speakers of other
 languages, offensive words without warning them they are
 offensive.

 bk>>  And how many of those using it understand the meaning and context.

 MvdV>Anyway the USA is not the only country in the world where
 MvdV>native English speakers live. As one our friends from down
 MvdV>under.

 bk>>>>  The phrase, "Politically incorrect" is offensive,

 MvdV>>> Now I am even more puzzled...

 bk>>  Keep listening, it will all come clear.

 MvdV>Hmmm....

 bk>>>> Some things really are wrong.

 MvdV>>> You are wrong. It depends on culture. What is wrong in one
 MvdV>>> culture can be perfectly all right in another. There is no
 MvdV>>> absolute right or wrong.

 bk>>  No, some things are truly wrong. Regardless of culture.

 MvdV>Such as?

 Murder. Slavery. Rape.

 bk>>  Some cultures accept things that are truly wrong, but that doesn't
 bk>>  mean they are not wrong.

 MvdV>What generally accepted superior authority decides what is
 MvdV>truly wrong and what is just wrong depending on culture?

 Aside from me? Ok, I believe in evolutionary morality. What is
 found to be right and wrong evolve for the best for the human
 race. It may not be 'devine', but I believe those things are so
 firmly established as wrong that I will say they are without
 reservation.

 bk>>>>  Absolutely true. Now, accept that the word is truly offensive.

 MvdV>>> I can go as far as to acceptt that it is truly offensive
 MvdV>>> to *yo*.

 bk>>  It is to those it is aimed at.

 MvdV>What if it is not aimed at any one?

 Then it is meaningless, and why use it?

 MvdV>>> As long as there are cleaning ladies, society will be
 MvdV>>> divided into people that can afford one and people that
 MvdV>>> have no choice bit to be one...

 bk>>  Not exactly true. If there were fewer people who had no choice,
 bk>>  those who wanted one would have to pay enough that some people
 bk>>  would do it for the pay increase. At $100,000/yr a lot of people
 bk>>  will clean houses. Hell, I'd think about it. Maybe.

 MvdV>I don't think a cleaning person earning substantially more
 MvdV>than a college graduate would be an economically stable
 MvdV>situation.

 Why not? There is nothing in the law of supply and demand that
 says any level of education is inherently better paid than any
 other. Besides, what makes you so sure a college grad would not
 clean houses? My wife used to clean houses, after she got her
 degree, between her regular jobs. My son in law had a master's
 degree in mechanical engineering and a masters in economics and
 he was delivering pizza, while my daughter was in grad school.
 It's all in what the immediate economic situation is.

 Had a famous story told here, back in one of our recessions,
 about a couple physicists going to an airport, leaving a
 conference, sharing a cab. As they rode to the airport they
 discussed physics, with the cab driver joining the conversation
 as he had a degree in physics, but the economy was down.

 Oh, and I know an account, with a degree, working as a security
 guard. His employer downsized a few years ago, and he's over 50.
 Finding another job is just plain hard. Losing a job and winding
 up as a greeter for Wall Mart is a running joke here among all
 sorts of high paid people.

 MvdV>>> The phenomenum of cleaning ladies emphesises unequality in
 MvdV>>> society and that is offensive to some in some cultures.
 MvdV>>> Therefore bragging about having a cleaning lady is a no-no
 MvdV>>> in those cultures.

 bk>>  Agreed, and I understand where you are coming from on this.
 bk>>  I have read the rest of the exchange, or much of it. I don't
 bk>>  think he understands what you are saying, but I do.

 MvdV>Oh, I think he understands very well. He is not as myopic
 MvdV>as he sometimes pretends to be. He will never admit it of
 MvdV>course. That would spoil his image.

 His image of being myopic? Ok, I suppose he might not want to
 spoil that.

  HEY!

  Myopic just means nearsighted. I been wearing glasses for
  myopia since I was 14. Is that a shot????

 MvdV>Cheers, Michiel

 Raising my cup of coffee in salute.

BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... I was a hippie before it became respectable.
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