Text 45002, 132 rader
Skriven 2006-12-25 17:24:54 av Roy Witt (1:397/22)
  Kommentar till text 44758 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Kindergarten
====================
24 Dec 06 17:57, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Roy Witt:

 MvdV> Hello Roy!

 MvdV> On Saturday December 23 2006 18:42, you wrote to me:

 RW>>>> Not really. All you would have to do to satisfy your curiosity
 RW>>>> is to join the 'FAMILY' network and see for yourself.

 MvdV>>> I happen to have a fairly recent nodelist of theirs.

 RW>> That doesn't get it.

 MvdV> I can see that there is a lot of dead wood. I can make an estimate
 MvdV> of the number of active participants.

Not without calling each and every one of them.

 RW>>  If you aren't reading the echoes, how can you know if they have
 RW>> traffic or not?

 MvdV> The estimate tells me there can not be enough traffic for 350+ live
 MvdV> echos.

I believe you'll find that some of those are 'placeholders' and aren't
distributed echoes.

 RW>>>> From what I hear, they don't have the in-fighting that Fidonet
 RW>>>> has.

 MvdV>>> No wonder. The dead don't fight. From what I glean from their
 MvdV>>> nodelist, they are as fit to enter the ring as Fidel Castro.

 RW>> Let me re-phrase; From what I hear, they didn't have the in-fighting
 RW>> that Fidonet has when they were nearly as big as Fidonet is now.

 MvdV> Going by hearsay eh?

It might be called hearsay when you read it from me. I know a few of the
people who are in that net. i.e. the author of the software that LaCosta
uses to keep his elist was written by a member of that net, Dana Bell. He
was also a Fidonet sysop in the past.

The docs are strewn with mention that net and a mention here and there
about Fidoent using it.

 RW>>>> I no longer care what the elist is or does. It has been corrupted
 RW>>>> by the person who keeps it. When an honest person comes along and
 RW>>>> starts another elist service, I'll think about it.

 MvdV>>> The concept is asking for corruption. Even if the next person
 MvdV>>> starts out 100% honest, the list will be abused sooner or later.

 RW>> A list may not be corrupted, if it has checks and balances from the
 RW>> outside.

 MvdV> In this case, it does not.

Correct and thus, it has been corrupted. And not just recently, it was
corrupt from the beginning. Perhaps it wasn't meant to be that way, but it
surfaced soon enough.

 RW>> The person who runs it may be a crook like LaCosta, but with
 RW>> outside observers using the checks and balances can keep the
 RW>> echolist uncorrupt. Of course, it cannot be a privately owned list
 RW>> like LaCosta's.

 MvdV> I agree that with a different setup it could work. Like how it was
 MvdV> doe in Z2 where the list keeper was not Lord and Master, but
 MvdV> subject to the *ECs and an echomail policy.

That same echomail policy was rejected here because it was offered by an
already corrupt person who wanted to dominate the distribution of
echomail. Not to mention that *ECs are subject to the whims of *Cs. The
only way would be to include it in policy. Even that won't work because
*Cs are usually corrupted by the perceived power of that hat.

 MvdV>>> a list keeper should *never* list himself or one of his users as
 MvdV>>> moderator.

 RW>> That'd be a good rule to implement into a 'moderator' owned
 RW>> echolist.

 MvdV> At least it avoid a potential source of conflict of interest.

Yes...if it could only have been agreed to by a majority of moderators.
However, since they have no mention in policy, they're at the mercy of the
Fidonet politicians.

 RW>> But the days of moderators putting their heads together and creating
 RW>> such a list is long gone. Maybe you were there when the attempt was
 RW>> made to form a moderator's union. I was and had it been successful,
 RW>> LaCosta's list wouldn't exist as we know it today.

 MvdV> No, I missed that.

Too bad. A few more with convincing arguements could have helped.

 MvdV>>> Since he is in a priviliged position, it creates a conflict of
 MvdV>>> interest. It is asking for corruption.

 RW>> Yeup. And the corruption started a long time ago. Almost immediately
 RW>> after the failure of the Kohl - Frezburg echolist after Adrian
 RW>> Walker discontinued his echolist. c1997

 MvdV> That was when the merger of the Z1 and Z2 echolist failed. Yes, I
 MvdV> think that was when the problem started. It also led up to the
 MvdV> dropping of the Z2 list BTW.

Yes, I remember that. I think the Z2 list keeper was disheartened when the
moderators flocked to LaCosta's list instead of his. It was really bad
planning by Adrian Walker, who was influenced by Sylvestre and Bodger.
Bodger was the Z1EC back then.

 MvdV>>> Don't you have rules in your country that prevents f.e.
 MvdV>>> organisers of lotteries and their employees to buy tickets
 MvdV>>> themselves?

 RW>> Rules and laws. It's a wonder no one has noticed that here, since
 RW>> every contest and every scheme to make money like that has the rules
 RW>> stated from the beginning.

 MvdV> Ack.


               R\%/itt




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