Text 47605, 112 rader
Skriven 2007-01-16 19:48:13 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
  Kommentar till text 47595 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Clarification #4711
===========================
Hello Michiel.

17 Jan 07 00:16, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff!

 MV> On Tuesday January 16 2007 12:54, you wrote to me:

 JS>>>> Nothing broken here. Just saying what I see until it gets
 JS>>>> fixed.

 MV>>> IOW: you will continue to whine until you get your way....

 JS>>      I will continue to speak up. And it isn't my way as much as
 JS>> it is what is best for Fidonews.

 MV> What is best _in_your_opinion_.

     For this echo? To have an echo where people have enough respect for
the echo and hopefully for the moderator as well to act in a reasonable
and adult manner. That in a large part (regardless of the moderating style)
depends on the moderator and what opinion of being fair and unbiased that
people have of him/her. There are always going to be people that by their
nature are prone to being inappropriate or obstreperous in their behavior.
I have found that if such people believe you to be fair and even-handed
regardless of whether they like or agree with you that are more apt to
comply with you moderation of them. Effective communication is the key
ingredient there. That and the treatment of everyone based on the same set
of standards. Noone including the moderator is exempt. The moderator needs
to make it clear what the guidelines are for the echo and be willing enforce
them as well as to be willing to abide by them. This echo needs to
be a place where people can come to discuss Fidonews and Fidonews articles
without the fear of being attacked or ridiculed.

     For the Fidonews? To have a newsletter that people feel inclined and
interested in reading and writing articles. No big surprize there I am
afraid. Again here people's inclination to submit articles is based in
part on their perception of the editor, his/her competence, and unbiased
treatment of people and the articles that they submit.

     I am not suggesting that Bjorn is or isn't failing in these abilities
and qualities. These are qualities and expectations that I think people are
justified in having of this echo, the Fidonews, and the editor/moderator.
I also realize that the editor can't post articles that people don't submit.


 JS>>>>      The current situation is unacceptable.

 MV>>> You can not always get what you want. Only children and fanatics
 MV>>> refuse to accept that.

 JS>>      I am neither.

 MV> Then why do you insist on acting like one?


     As you are so fond of saying. That is the opinion that you choose
to have. Your opinion doesn't make it a fact. IMO you think that I act
like one because I will not resign myself to the way things are when I
know that there is a better way. When one resigns oneself to what is
instead of what could be they have effectively defeated themselves.

 JS>> I am simply someone that sees the way things are and knows that
 JS>> there has to be a better way.

 MV> Again: _in_your_opinion_

     Actually think about it. How ever one does something. There is always
a better way that it could have been done. They just haven't discovered it
yet. No matter how good one may think that their way is there is always a
better way. The problem arises when one stops looking for a better way if
their current way no longer works well enough to achieve their goal.

 MV> As you can see there are others who see it different.

     As well as others that see the same situation as I do. It isn't a matter
of who agrees with who. Or how many people may or may not agree with me or
Bjorn. What matters is that this echo and more importantly Fidonews not
be allowed to degrade into something that people have no interest in or
use for.

     Take this echo for example. While there are a number of people
here that are well behaved and act appropiately. There are a number of
people that use this echo as just another flame echo where there are no
rules and anything and everyone is fair game. That is the way things are
Michiel but not the way that they should be. That being an echo where people
can post an opinion or idea without the fear of being called an F'ing idiot
or an F'ing moron. Or where people don't have to wade through dozens of flame
messages to find one that is worth (To them) reading. Yes, the moderator
posts rules here. A rather pointless effort when the moderator has also made
it clear that he will not do anything to enforce them. It isn't my goal to
endlessly attack Bjorn. I would much rather work with him than against him.
But I can not sit back and simply accept what is when what is isn't what
could be. It is Bjorn's apparent resignation to accept the chaos that I
have the biggest problem with.

    I am sure that you will just consider this more whining without actually
thinking about what I am saying. I would like to think that I am wrong in
that assumption. I take this matter seriously and am not just speaking up
to cause trouble. I consider the Fidonews an important part of Fidonet and
would like to see it stay that way.


 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20060315
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.van.der.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- FMail/Win32 1.60
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - MN USA (1:14/0)