Text 11018, 92 rader
Skriven 2008-02-13 16:03:29 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
Ärende: Shootings in USA
========================
Hello Jeff,

On Monday February 11 2008 20:22, you wrote to me:

 MV>> I beg to differ. Not having guns is not what *I* consider a lost
 MV>> freedom.

 JS>      That is the point I have tried to make to others also. I have no
 JS> problem with you or anyone else in other countries thinking as they
 JS> choose. That is their/your right as I see it. But when they start
 JS> saying that what we as Americans believe should or shouldn't be our
 JS> right in our own country is wrong. That is what I object to. I am
 JS> making no judgements as to whose idea might be better.

Oh, but you do pass judgement. In your previous message you wrote:

 JS>>>      Umm... Sorry but raping girls isn't what anyone that I know
 JS>>> here would consider a lost freedom. Course that may be differant
 JS>>> in other countries but I would hope not.

The "I hope not" is passing judgment on those that have not yet abolished the
practise of raping girls.

 JS> What you and/or the people there think is better for your country is
 JS> fine with me.

Your government seems to think different. Now they are trying again to get
armed (US) air marshals on board every airplane entering US air space. So also
on KLM planes. Something we are dead set against. You (Ye all) *are* trying to
push your ways on us.

 JS> The fact that we as Americans choose to want to keep a right that we
 JS> have seemingly always had is up to us to decide.

Sure. But then if you do you can expect *us* to use the right to express our
opinion on it. Just like we would express our opinion on countries that decide
to retain the right of stoning adulterous women, deciding to retain the droit
de signeur or the practice of cannibalism.

 MV>> That may have something to do with the fact that I never had
 MV>> that right to begin with.

 JS>      Very true. Your opinion is in part I think based on the fact that
 JS> in your country having or owning a gun has never been considered a
 JS> right. And therefore it is easier for you to form the opinion that
 JS> guns should be banned. Here we look at it differantly.

My other point was that in a non static society rights can not always be
forever. So considering something a right is not a very strong argument for
continuing the practice until Kingdom come.

 MV>> Societies evolve and rights can not be unlimited. The right of
 MV>> the one is almost always an intrusion on the right of someone
 MV>> else. Compromises have to be made and for it to work these
 MV>> compromises have to be laid down in laws.

 JS>      The problem arises when the government takes it upon themselves
 JS> to determine what the people want or what the government thinks is
 JS> best for the people.

There is no way a government can push something through if there is no general
acceptance of the measures taken. They can lead but they can not force. Not in
a democracy.

 JS> Maybe I from the old school but I still think the government should
 JS> reflect what the people as a whole think is right for them.

I fully agree here. But the flip side of the medal is that if they do, the
people as a whole will be held responsible for the actions of their government.

 MV>> Our society has evolved to the point where we do not need citizens to
 MV>> have guns. Other societies have not advanced to that point yet. They
 MV>> banned rape, but still allow guns.

 JS>      Again you judge others and what is right for them based on
 JS> yourself and your society.

I used my freedom of speech to express my opinion on societies who's citizens
have not yet waived their right to carry arms.

 JS>>>      Umm... Sorry but raping girls isn't what anyone that I know
 JS>>> here would consider a lost freedom. Course that may be differant
 JS>>> in other countries but I would hope not.

Just like you did on countries who's citizens have not yet waived the right to
rape girls.  If it is ok for you to do that, it should be ok for me as well.


Cheers, Michiel

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