Text 15131, 281 rader
Skriven 2008-05-10 21:40:42 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 15099 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Thought crime...again
=============================
Hello Michiel.

11 May 08 00:57, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Wednesday April 30 2008 21:52, you wrote to me:

 MV>>> Ok, so how about the following.

 MV>>> You come to The Netherlands - invited by an undercover cop or on
 MV>>> your own initiative - and are arrested for intent to maim or
 MV>>> kill Dutch citizens with a fire arm.

 JS>>      If I came to the Netherlands with a handgun in my posession.

 MV> No, you leave your fire arms at home.

 MV>>> You owe fire arms.

 JS>>      Yes, I own fire arms.

 MV>>>  You do fire them on occasion.

 JS>>      Yes I do. There's an indoor firing range less than a mile
 JS>> away that I visit occasionally.

      Sorry, but I guess being indoors there isn't a chance of me hitting
a Dutchman. You might want to change the rules abit to account for that.


 MV> Thank you for your cooperation.

     Ummm... Ok.

 MV>>>  Surely you must have fired in an easterly direction on
 MV>>> occasion.

 JS>>      Probably.

 MV> Right.

 MV>>> So you pointed at Dutch citizens and dicharged the weapon.

 JS>>      Here's where your scenario looses all believability and
 JS>> becomes silly.

 MV> Exactly my thoughts when I first heard about the Menno Blom case.

     The differance that you can't avoid Michiel is that in the Blom
case a US law was broken. Regardless of whether you or I agree with
it or not. When on US soil the man charged with the crime was arrested.

     Your scenario beyond being silly could not be effectively enforced
and would have next to chance of ever being a law anyway. You might want
to rethink your example and try again.

 JS>>  What is the effective range of the best, most powerful gun
 JS>> (Rifle/handgun) that you know of? The Barret 50cal has a range of
 JS>> about 2100 meters (6890 feet). The distance between Minneapolis,
 JS>> MN and Amsterdam, Netherlands is about 4149.0 miles (6677.0 km).

 MV> So your defence is that you could never have actually hurt a Dutch
 MV> citizen because while you were in the US you were out of range and
 MV> while you were in The Netherlands you did not bring the gun.

     That would work also.


 MV> Well, Menno Blom never actually had sex with a US girl.

     We are making the assumption that that was his first attempt. By the
time that child sex offenders are caught and arrested they have usually
molested a number of children already.

 MV>  He could not have. While in The Netherlands, he was "out of range"
 MV> and when he was in the US, the girl did not exist, it was a LEO
 MV> imposing as a girl. That did not keep him out of jail.


 JS>>     If we are going to discuss this you have to be a whole lot
 JS>> more realistic there Michiel.

 MV> So you say the scenario is unrealistic. Exactly my thoughts when I
 MV> first heard about the Menno Blom case.

    Hardly Michiel. You choose to draw a simularity because you disagree
with the tactics of the US LEA's. The fact of the matter is that your
scenario is no where near being realistic. Yet you expect people to take
you seriously.

    Menno Blom broke a US law and was arrested on US soil. Sounds like a
logical conclusion to an illegal act.


 MV>  How can anyone possibly get into jail for something that he did while
 MV> in his own country where it is not against the law and which he did
 MV> not do in the country where he was arrested? But Menno Blom went to
 MV> jail.

 MV> Point is that if the US can make laws that are unrealistic in the eyes
 MV> of Dutch people, then The Netherlands can make laws that are
 MV> unrealistic in the eyes of American people.

 JS>>     If I fire any handgun or rifle in the the general direction
 JS>> of the Netherlands. There is NO expectation of the bullet
 JS>> traveling much more than a mile. I think that all Dutch citizens
 JS>> there are safe and need not worry.

 MV> I think that the US girls were safe from Menno Blom.

     Doubtfull Michiel. Reports from several US universities suggest that
child molesters in general assault many victims before they are apprehended.
And if they are allowed to return to commit their crime again, it is very
likely that they would. Why not? Who will stop them? That is the reason for
the 'Sting' operations setup by many county, state, and federal LEA's.

    In the last three years some 9000 child sex offense arrests were made
and 85 percent of those are reported to be foreign citizens. Many returning
to the US to satisfy their sexual desires for children.

    These people be them US or foreign citizens



 MV>  Apparently the US court ruled otherwise and send him to jail.

     If he was guilty that would seem like the logical conclusion.

 MV>  By the same token *you* may think the Dutch people are safe from your
 MV> action, but if the Dutch court rules otherwise then you go to jail.

     That would depend on me breaking a Dutch law on Dutch soil.

 MV>>> By that you commited sevarel crimes and they were directed
 MV>>> against Dutch citizens.

 JS>>      Only in your mind Michiel. Only in your mind.

 MV> Like Menno Blom's crimes only existed in your mind?

    Hardly. Once AGAIN. The differance is that Blom broke a REAL US law
and was REALLY arrested. Versus your imaginary Dutch law which you change
to suit your needs to try to prove a point.

 MV> Menno Blom went to jail becuase by US law coming to the US and meeting
 MV> a policeman in the lobby of a hotel is sufficient evidence of a crime.

    Menno Blom went to jail because he broke a US law in trying to (Again?)
have sex with a American minor child. In the same way that the DEA here
(Drug Enforcement Agency) sets up stings to catch people trying to buy or
sell drugs. The DEA provides the opportunity and people choose to take
advantage of that opportunity.

 MV> By the same token if Dutch law says that coming to The Netherlands
 MV> while owning a gun and having fired it  - no matter where the gun is
 MV> kept - is sufficient evidence for a crime, then to jail you wil go.

    Does that mean that the US could have a law that says that if someone
enters the country and has ever jerked off that they could be arrested for
sexual conduct?

    We are headed down the road to stupidville Michiel. Might I suggest that
we turn around and head back?

 JS>>>>     Although they are related, an arrest is based on action and
 JS>>>> not intent.

 MV>>> Right, the action was firing the gun.

 JS>>      But at who?

 MV> At who were Menno Blom's actions directed?

    A 14 year old girl. Remember, having, trying to have, conspiring to have
sex with a minor in the US is illegal

    Section 2423 of title 18, United States Code, states the following:

[[Page 117 STAT. 654]]

(b) Travel With Intent To Engage in Illicit Sexual Conduct.

   A person who travels in interstate commerce or travels into the United
States, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent
residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, for the
purpose of engaging in any illicit sexual conduct with another person
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or
both.

(c) Engaging in Illicit Sexual Conduct in Foreign Places.

  Any United States citizen or alien admitted for permanent residence who
travels in foreign commerce, and engages in any illicit sexual conduct
with another person shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
more than 30 years, or both.

(d) Ancillary Offenses.

  Whoever, for the purpose of commercial advantage or private financial
gain, arranges, induces, procures, or facilitates the travel of a person
knowing that such a person is traveling in interstate commerce or foreign
commerce for the purpose of engaging in illicit sexual conduct shall be
fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

(e) Attempt and Conspiracy.

  Whoever attempts or conspires to violate subsection (a), (b), (c), or (d)
shall be punishable in the same manner as a completed violation of that
subsection.

(f) Definition.

  As used in this section, the term `illicit sexual conduct' means a sexual
act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age.


 JS>>  Was I aiming at a target 100 meters away or at something or
 JS>> someone else? The action has to clearly show intent.

 MV> If US law says meeting with a policeman in the lobby of a hotel is
 MV> proof of intent, then meeting with a policeman in the lobby of a hotel
 MV> is proof of intent.

 MV> If Dutch law says coming to The Netherland while owning a gun and
 MV> confessing to having fired it, is proof of intent, then it is proof of
 MV> intent.

    Intent to do what?

    How many Dutchmen would be immediately arrestable because they had owned
or ever fired a gun.

    Let's get a little more real, ok?


 JS>> If I aim a gun at someone. There is reason to believe that I
 JS>> intended to harm or kill that person. If I fire a gun with no
 JS>> apparant intent to shoot at anyone. Then the action did not show
 JS>> or suggest intent.

 MV> If the court rules there was intent because the law says so, then
 MV> there was intent. No matter what you say. Like Menno Blom was
 MV> convicted, no matter what he said in defence.

     That is where your argument fails Michiel. Blom showed intent. He
plainly showed his intent to have sex with a child when he sent sexually
explicit pictures and video of himself to the LEA posing as a child. He
showed his intent yet again when he traveled to the US for the purpose
of having sex with a child. We can only guess at what prior sexual crimes
involving children that he may have commited.

 MV>>> You still think it is ok if you get arrested for that when you
 MV>>> set foot on Dutch soil?

 JS>>      If I set foot on Dutch soil with the intent to shoot someone
 JS>> there and I either bring a gun or aquire a gun there. If I were
 JS>> arrested while acting out my intention then I should be arrested.
 JS>> Dutch law is Dutch law and should be applied equally and fairly
 JS>> to all.

 MV> Of course it should apply to all. *Everyone* owning a gun outside The
 MV> Netherlands and confessing to having fired it will be arrested when
 MV> stepping on Dutch soil.

     Me thinks the Dutch should build some REALLY, REALLY, REALLY big
prisons over there then.

     Dang, where did everyone go? Oh yeah, their stuck over in the
Netherlands.


 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)