Text 34347, 146 rader
Skriven 2009-07-08 01:13:43 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Saberi vs Blom
======================
Hello Bob,

On Sunday July 05 2009 07:25, you wrote to me:

 MV>>>> Dimitri Sklyaraov was invited for a conference in the US and
 MV>>>> arrested for doing just that.

 RB>>> He was _not_ arrested for attending the conference, Michiel.

 MV>> Didn't say he was.

 RB> "was invited for a conference in the US and arrested for doing just
 RB> that"

Hmmm.. perhaps you should configure your reader so that it displays the entire
paragraph and not just the last line. Let me quote the entire paragraph that I
wrote and not just the last line:

==== quote ===

There is more to life than sex Jeff. I have been a professional programmer. As
such I have employed reverse engineering and changed software to circumvent
limitations. Microsoft and IBM do not like that at all, but the fact is that it
is legal here. Dimitri Sklyaraov was invited for a conference in the US and
arrested for doing just that.

==== end quote ====

I admit that it is ambiguous, but surely you can see that the scope of "that"
is not necessarily limited to the last line, but can be the last paragraph.
Surely you can see that by "that" I meant  "reverse engineered and changed
software to circumvent limitations".

 RB>>> Michiel, what you describe is nothing new and nothing specific to
 RB>>> the States. I already told you about the American neo-Nazi who
 RB>>> was invited to Denmark, arrested there and extradited to Germany
 RB>>> for his actions in the States.

 MV>> I know, but two wrongs do not make a right. Luring foreignres to
 MV>> one's jursidiction and prosecuting them for something that is not
 MV>> illegal in the country where they did it, is plain wrong.

 RB> "Luring"? He was invited and came voluntarily.

Would he have come if he knew he would be arrested?

 RB> "Not illegal"? Russia has laws, too, and hacking other people's
 RB> software is a no-no even there.

How do you know? As I told you "reverse engineering and changing software to
circumvent limitation" (which some call hacking) is legal in The Netherlands.

 RB>>> The basis for his arrest, incidentally, was that his inflammatory
 RB>>> website was available in Germany over the Internet.

 MV>> Lame excuse.

 RB> Valid reason.

Not in my perception. World wide availability is inherent in the web. I would
not even know how to NOT make mt website available in selected countries. It
you make something available, it is available everywhere, unless it is blocked
at the receiving end. The owner of the website was in the states, where his
activities are legal to put on the web. EOS.

 MV>> If you do not like it that others exert their right of free speech
 MV>> over the Internet, then do not make use of the internet. If you do
 MV>> use the intermet, take the liabilities with the assets.

 RB> I suspect there are similar things in the Netherlands, as in quite a
 RB> number of other countries.

Possibly, but as I wrote: two wrongs do not make a right.

 RB>>> The main point is that persons who carry out an activity that is
 RB>>> legal where they live have no immunity against prosecution when
 RB>>> they travel to a country where the action is illegal.

 MV>> Which is wrong.

It is wrong because it severely restricts peoples freedom. It is impossible to
respect ALL countries laws when one is not even there. There are so many
countries, there are so many laws, there is no way one can know them all. The
probability of breaking the law of another country is near 100%. You can not
safely travel anywhere if you can get arrested for breaking a law that you
never knew about when you did it because you were not there.

Do you know the all the laws of Turkmenistan? If not, better never go there,
because you may have done something which is perfectly legal in Germany but
illegal in Turkmenistan.  You may find yourself arrested on arrival.

 RB> Maybe, but "them's the facts".

And knowing those facts I will not accept invitations to visit the US.

 RB>>> Owning one in a foreign country, assuming that could be proven in
 RB>>> the first place, is not illegal even for a European.

 MV>> Indeed it is not, but we can change the law...

 RB> And get the charge thrown out the first time the law is challenged in
 RB> court.

How so? Here courts do not have the authority to challence the law. They have
no choice but to follow the law, no matter how silly it is.

 MV>> It was American software, (Adobe). AFAIK the systems that he
 MV>> worked on were in Russia.

 RB> Which has no bearing on the fact that he hacked American software.
 RB> That automatically gave the Americans jurisdiction the minute he set
 RB> foot on American soil.

Why? What international treaty gives then that right? If Americans do not like
that their software is not "reverse engineered and changed to circumvent
limitation" in a country where this is not illegal, they should not sell it in
that countries.

 RB>  He should have stuck to Russian software or stayed in Russia.

You just gave me another good reason to stay away from the US. I have "reverse
engineered and changed American software to circumvent limitations".  Which, I
say it again, in itself is legal here.

 RB>>> Although I agree the tendency exists - see some of the stuff Roy
 RB>>> writes - I still think you've picked bad examples to defend.

 MV>> Bad examples or not, it is one of the reasons, I will not accept
 MV>> invitations to go to the USA.

 RB> Now, don't tell me you're hacking American software or writing sexy
 RB> messages to little American girls and boys? ;-))

The first. In fact I completely rewrote the FLEX 68xx operating system. It got
me a "name" in the 6809 community and that again it got me a job.

FLEX is (was?) a product of Technical System Consultants. It was a long time
ago and I do not know if they still exist. Maybe there is a statue of
limitation. Anyway, reverse engineering is legal here and when did it, I was
not aware that it is something that can get me arrested when I ever visit the
US.

Cheers, Michiel

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