Text 16110, 186 rader
Skriven 2011-03-31 15:49:00 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
  Kommentar till text 16024 av Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
Ärende: Them damn French Warmonge
=================================
31 Mar 11 12:44, Ward Dossche wrote to Roy Witt:


 RW>> WD> ... a freight flight after hostilities ended with mail bags on a
 RW>> B17
 RW>> WD> which was quickly abandoned. No passenger flight. You've
 RW>> obviously
 RW>> WD> never been in a B17 in flight or you wouldn't say such a thing.

 RW>> You're saying that a commercialized B17 couldn't carry one extra
 RW>> person? I think that's ludicrous in the face of what that craft
 RW>> could carry as a bomber.

 WD> I'm saying that a B17 was used on a handful of occasions only to
 WD> carry mailbags between Sweden and the North American continent with
 WD> 4-5 stops. Very uneconomical.

Perhaps 'uneconmical', but practical considering that there weren't any
other planes that could span the distance.

 WD> You cannot commercialise a B17 to carry pasengers or freight.

Wrong there too. Neils Bohr's flight to England in 1945 was in a
'passenger cabin' built just for carrying passengers in a bomb bay.

 WD> Therefore a B17 could carry some freight but never be converted into
 WD> a freighter. The fuselage is narrow and cramped, try visiting one,
 WD> try flying on one ... I've been on a B17 and a Lancaster, you have no
 WD> idea of how cramped, cold, noisy, uncomfortable that it is ... even
 WD> for a 15min spin.

Been there, done that. Ever hear of the Confederate Air Force? They fly a
B17 all over the country, even landing here in our 'small' airport. They
only charge $200 for a 'passenger' flight too.

 RW>> Not impossible. Flying over the waters of the Baltic between Norway
 RW>> and Denmark wouldn't bring much attention to the flight. They must
 RW>> have done something similar, since they did fly to Scotland during
 RW>> the war.

 WD> There have been a few flights making a stop in Norway to be checked
 WD> by the Germans.

Only necessary to apease the Nazi in order to keep their 'neutrality'...

 WD> Mostly international red cross related for POW's and under
 WD> supervision of the Nazis. Never think this was a commercial
 WD> line. The Nazis even informed the Brits such a flight was on its way
 WD> and the Brits sent fighters in order to shoot it down at the first
 WD> sign of "an issue".

More likely as an escort to make sure it's not shot down by the Germans.

 RW>> WD> 2) over the top of the world there are no servicing spots, no
 RW>> WD> refueling, no
 RW>> WD>    landing at all until Newfoundland. Svalbard was unavailable
 RW>> then

 RW>> Iceland was occupied by the US Army Airforce. There must have been
 RW>> something there to land on besides your imagination.

 WD> You used the term "over the top of the world". Flying via Iceland is
 WD> not "over the top of the world", Iceland's even below the Arctic
 WD> circle.

Close enough. Take a look at a world globe sometime. Sweden and Iceland
are more on top of the world than America is. 60 degrees north of 40
degrees north is how far?

 WD> Read more books, you can learn these things from 'm.

LOL! Not if you're any example.

 RW>> WD> A B17 cannot fly Sweden to Newfoundland non-stop.

 RW>> The B17 service ceiling was 35,800 ft. (10,850 m), with a max. range
 RW>> of 3,400 miles (5,471 km). So, it can fly there. And if not
 RW>> directly, by making one or two stops along the way. In fact many
 RW>> B17s had done just that several times.

 WD> The range of a B17 is 1,738 nautical miles, 3,219km ...

Actually 1739 n-miles (aka 2000 miles) with a 6000lb bomb load...quite a
bit further without that 6000lb incumberance.

 WD> with rubber
 WD> fuel bags inside that distance could be stretched but then with
 WD> reduced payload (the fuel complements the payload) ... what would be
 WD> the use for a freighter able to carry zero-payload? That is the
 WD> reason why a B17 on average made 4-5 stops across the Atlantic.

The story of 5 B17s that flew non-stop from Hamilton Field, near Novato,
CA to Hickum Field in Hawaii on Dec 7, 1941, which is 2387 miles -
is well documented. Hickum was supposed to be their first fuel stop before
proceeding on to the Phillipines. And none of them required any rubber
bags for a load of extra fuel.

 WD> Gander-Gothab/Nuuk: 919nm about 6.5-7hrs flying in an empty B17
 WD> Gothab/Nuuk-Keflavik: 750nm about 5.5hrs flying in an empty B17
 WD> Keflavik-Prestwick: 741nm about 5.5hrs flying in an ampty B17

 WD> These are the flying times and trips made on an eastbound trip. On a
 WD> westbound add at least 2hrs for headwinds. "The Lost Squadron" is a
 WD> great book, contains a wealth of factual information of the B17's
 WD> that crashlanded in Greenland.

Obviously not the best source of info on B17s, as you've proven so far.

 RW>> WD> 3) Navigation ... navigation at that time was 100% inertial.

 RW>> Meaning in this case, inertial forces. Which do not exist in the
 RW>> real world.

 WD> It seems you do know what the term "inertial navigation" means.

You didn't state that...

 RW>> WD> The more to the north (and south) you go, the less reliable it
 RW>> WD> becomes.

 RW>> "Many people have the impression that aerial navigation is an
 RW>> elaborate and formidable science, difficult to master. Actually, it
 RW>> is a clear-cut, logical, scientific art. ...

 WD> Funny ... even the Air Force 1 B747 has been known to become lost
 WD> across the Atlantic, and that's hi-tech navigation.

Anyone can get lost if they're not paying attention. It's the navigator's
job to keep track of their position and find himself if they get off
course. Not a big deal. Even the 1940s navigator had that ability without
relying on 'modern' instruments.

 WD> Transatlantic and transpacific flights routinely went of-course
 WD> across oceans.

Yeup, but they always corrected their course. You should know that.

 WD> The 50nm track separation across the Atlantic is because the
 WD> deviation on inertial navigation without a single waypoint is less.

Try reading a bit more on the nav system in a B17...the Army Air Force
manual should give you a better idea of how to navigate.

 WD> And Noonan didn't find Howland Island either.

That's because he was a dwarf.

 RW>> Meanwhile you continue to blather in ignorance of WW2 aircraft not
 RW>> having the capability of flying from Sweden to the UK or the US if
 RW>> they had to.

 WD> I've never said they couldnt, merely that they didn't.

 RW>> "After leaving Denmark in the dramatic day and night (October 1943)
 RW>> when most Jews were able to escape to Sweden due to exceptional
 RW>> circumstances (see Rescue of the Danish Jews), Bohr was quickly
 RW>> asked again to join the British effort and he was flown to the UK.
 RW>> He was evacuated from Stockholm

 WD> Bohr went by freighter vessel to England from Sweden.

Wrong. Bohr stayed in Sweden until the war was over and then went to
England via De Havilland Mosquito in 1945...

 RW>> in 1943 in an unarmed De Havilland Mosquito operated by British
 RW>> Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC). Passengers on BOAC's Mosquitos
 RW>> were carried in an improvised cabin in the bomb bay.

 WD> You've obviously never seen a Mosquito nor its bomb bay. There simply
 WD> is no space to fit anything nor anyone in it other than 4 bombs or a
 WD> camera.

You obviously don't know anything about how Bohr got to England.

 WD> You're good at cut-and-pasting, Roy, but you know so little about
 WD> this.

On the contrary, proving that you know less and less everytime...


                R\%/itt

  Fox News was not used as a source for information in this message!

--- Twit(t) Filter v2.1 (C) 2000-10
 * Origin: SATX Alamo Area Net * South * Texas, USA * (1:387/22)