Text 26562, 149 rader
Skriven 2012-03-09 00:13:00 av Dale Shipp (1:261/1466.0)
     Kommentar till en text av BjöRn Felten
Ärende: Re: Seen-Bys
====================
 -=> On 03-08-12  15:42,  Björn Felten <=-
 -=> spoke to Dale Shipp about Seen-Bys <=-

 DS> Well -- that lasted for less than one day. I can see that Michiel has
 DS> resorted to stuffing seen-bys again.

 BF> Just out of curiosity, how can you see that? I tried to 

I see it by looking at the seen-bys and doing a little bit of simple
analysis. Anyone could do the same and come up with the same conclusion.

 BF> give you a hint in a previous message, posting the (very
 BF> short) path along with the (extremely long) s-b list. And 
 BF> you mean you are still unable to connect the dots?

Oh really?  For that message you posted, every seen-by had a logical
reason for being there.  Just in case you can't figure out the reasons,
here is the analysis -- written step by step so that you can follow
along:

You said:
    BTW, this is what a message from you looks like on Paul's server
(he's one of the members of the fidoweb):

X-JAM-SEENBY2D: 2/2 18/0 109/500 112/0 116/116 123/0 52 57 140 456 500 
789 880 1011
X-JAM-SEENBY2D: 123/1025 6502 124/5013 135/1313 140/1 154/10 203/0 2 3 
124 208 412
X-JAM-SEENBY2D: 211/37 226/600 250/8 100 261/38 1466 266/420 280/5555 
298/5 320/101
X-JAM-SEENBY2D: 320/111 119 219 322/320 759 323/120 640/384 3634/12

X-JAM-PATH2D: 261/1466 123/500 320/119 203/0

And the simple analysis is:

I sent the message to 123/500.

123/500 sent the message to 320/119
123/500 links to a large number of systems.  Any of them that are linked
into FIDONEWS would thus be on the SEEN_BY as the message went to
320/119.  Based on a file published daily by 123/500, the nodes in the
Seen-bys above that are direct links to 123/500 are:

109/500, 116/116, 123/52 57 140 456 500 789 880 1011 1025 6502, 
135/1313, 140/1, 226/600, 250/100, 261/38, 266/420, 298/5, 320/119, 
322/320 759, 323/120, and 3634/12

It is safe to assume that he also put 18/0 and 123/0 into the seen-by,
since those are aka's of his.

It is reasonable that 320/119 would have feed the echo to the nodes in
his net, which accounts for the rest of the 320/* nodes.

320/119 feeds the echo to you at 203/0.
You in turn feed it to 203/2 , 280/5555, 640/384, 2/2, and 211/37 (based
on looking at paths of messages in the echo). It would also be logical
that you would feed 203/3 124 208 412 which are in your net.

640/384 (Paul, whose seen-bys you are quoting) sends the echo to 640/305
who should have been in the seen-bys, but for some reason is not.

That explains many of the nodes listed in the seen-bys.
The ones left are 112/0, 124/5013, 154/10, and 250/8.

112/0 and 250/8 do not exist in the current nodelist, so it is difficult
to say who put those nodes into the seen-bys or why.

124/5013 is a node in Shannon Talley's net -- reasonable that 320/119
would be feeding him.

154/10 is Nicholas Boel. He is feeding from you.

I say again, as I said before, Just what are you attempting to prove
with your quote of those seen-bys and path?  They look perfectly normal
and logical.  All would have occurred in the messages via normal and
accepted practices.

You are just putting up a smoke screen with your condescending remarks
that say nothing.

Now take a similar look at what Michiel is doing. Examine this message
which appears on your system:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: "Michiel van der Vlist -> Dale Shipp" <2:280/5555>
X-Comment-To: Dale Shipp
X-JAM-MSGID: 2:280/5555 4f549605
X-JAM-REPLYID: 1:261/1466.0 4f519fb4
X-JAM-SEENBY2D: 2/2 24/0 123/500 140/1 154/10 203/0 2 3 124 208 412
211/37 229/426
X-JAM-SEENBY2D: 250/8 280/19 5555 292/789 854 907 320/119 640/384
712/848 5019/40
X-JAM-SEENBY2D: 5020/545 1042
X-JAM-PATH2D: 280/5555 203/0 2
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Now, do the same sort of analysis on the seen-bys and path of that
message from Michiel.  The path is much shorter. The links that he feeds
(and thus should put into his seen-by) include:

5020/545 1042 712/848 and 292/854 

It is also likely or possible that he feeds 280/19, 292/789 907
5019/40.

He sent the message to you at 203/0.  You would have put your links into
the seen-bys.  Those links (as said above) are:

154/10 203/0 2 124 208 412, 2/2, 320/119, 640/384, 2/2, and 211/37 

That leaves the nodes:
24/0 123/500 140/1 229/426 250/8 

As I said above, 250/8 is not in the nodelist so we'll forget about that
entry.  229/426 is also not in the current nodelist, but since it would
be in the same net as Ward it is possible that Michiel was feeding such
a node once.

It is possible that one of the two of you is feeding 24/0, so we'll say
that node is accounted for.

That leaves 123/500 and 140/1.   I cannot say with certainty whether or
not either of you connect to 140/1, but I seriously doubt it or else he
would have shown up on the paths of messages going through your system.

I KNOW that neither of you connect to 123/500.  There is no reason that
node should be in the seen-by of a message from either Michiel or you --
unless someone is stuffing that node into the messages.

I also note that Michiel was recently stuffing 261/38 as well as 123/500
and 140/1 -- but for some reason is not now doing so, not that it
matters.

He is stuffing seen-bys, presumably in an attempt to prevent messages
going through his system from reaching the NAB.  That causes a severe
disruption in the echomail flow.

If you have any other explanation, people would like to hear it.

                               Dale Shipp
                  fido_261_1466 (at) comcast (dot) net
                              (1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 23:59:56, 08 Mar 2011
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