Text 6750, 100 rader
Skriven 2010-04-08 15:04:02 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
   Kommentar till text 6738 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Question about democracy
================================
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Thursday April 08 2010 at 10:11:

RB>> Michiel, you aren't familiar with the Americans, but as someone who
RB>> was born and grew up there I can tell you there has never been a time
RB>> when they didn't bitch about "those crooks in Washington" or want to
RB>> "throw the bums out". It's in the mentality, and shouldn't be talen
RB>> too literally.

MV> Then why limit it to US Americans? Why not extend the courtesy of "not
MV> taking too litereal" to some others as well? Why for example do nt the
MV> same when that Iranian character says something about "driving Isra‰l
MV> into the sea"?

Try as I may, I can't for the life of me see how you can compare criticism of
one's own government - even loud criticism - with the kind of things the arab
states have been saying - and doing - since 1947. From what you and some others
write, you'd think the Israelis attacked the arabs in 1947 instead of
vice-versa.

RB>> Would you prefer to live in a country like Zimbabwe or the
RB>> "Democratic" Republic of Congo?

MV> No, but then there are so many places I would not want to live.
MV> Including the USA. Should we impose a regime change on the people of
MV> the USA, just because *I* do not want to live there?

Does that have anything to do with the subject? To remind you, it was "free
speech" and the various limitations on it in various parts of the world. And
then you started to weep and wail about the USA "imposing" democracy on other
countries, which was ridiculous from the beginning, as such a thing is patently
impossible.

RB>> And as for "imposing" it on others... well, there are quite a number
RB>> of people in this world - including those in the above countries -
RB>> who would like to have the right to even _say_ "throw the bums out"
RB>> without risking their lives to do so. Is it really wrong to want to
RB>> help them?

MV> The problem is that you do not know if they really want the help.

And if you just stand by and wait until you're called, they'll never call.
Logical, if they'd have to risk their lives to do so.

So then we have situations like in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 -
or for that matter Georgia or the Ukraine in more modern times - where we just
stand by, weeping and wailing. If we're lucky, one of the locals manages to
grab power and if he doesn't turn out to be a total dictator, we can then - as
if we had anything to do with it - joyously proclaim "democracy".

Many people criticized the USA for not helping in Hungary and Czechoslovakia.
You appear to think such inaction was not only right, but the only proper thing
to (not) do. I was an American at the time, and frankly, I was ashamed - the
same way I was ashamed when the USA sold out a friend - Taiwan (R.O.C.) - for
the sake of good relations with economically powerful mainland China. Maybe
many people have forgotten that, but I haven't. And don't lecture me about how
the USA is helping Taiwan with defence - the shame of the sellout alone should
force the Americans to do that, just to save their own face.

As for Iraq, some people might have been better off under Saddam, but your idea
that it was heaven on earth for _all_ seems a bit extreme to me. I can and
could read the news even back when Saddam was in power, and it didn't look like
he did anyone except his own Tikritis much good. The only "advantage" to Saddam
was that he kept the country quiet - but that's something all dictators who
stay in power manage. Should we therefore support dictators who are nice enough
to keep their people quiet?

That's done often enough, and could have been continued in Saddam's case if he
hadn't been so stupid as to boast of his weapons, his good connections with the
Islamists, obstruct the inspections _and_ to try to kill George Jr.'s dad in
Kuweit. The Americans could perhaps have accepted one, maybe two of those, but
all four were just too much. Stupidity is punished in this world, and even
dictators aren't immune.

RB>> And is it really wrong not to want to merely help the elite keep
RB>> their unfettled power and privileges by providing aid that promptly
RB>> disappears into Swiss bank accounts or shopping tours in Paris for
RB>> the wives of the elite?

MV> Such as helping the American people to "throw out those bums in
MV> Washington"?

Unlike in other places, that's something the locals can do quite well
themselves. You're trying to needle, but only show up the weakness of your own
arguments.

RB>> I can see mistakes and a certain missionary zeal (not in a religious
RB>> but in a political sense), but I can't see the determined imperialism
RB>> you appear to see in the American system, and probably never will.

MV> Look at history Bob. The US has a lot in common with the Roman
MV> empire...

If it did, Western Europe would nowadays be a group of U.S. states, and the US
might actually have taken up suggestions to join with the Germans to conquar
the USSR. I _do_ look at history, whereas I think you often ignore it.

Cheers, Bob

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