Text 8596, 386 rader
Skriven 2013-05-23 09:37:28 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
   Kommentar till text 8592 av Gerrit Kuehn (2:2411/12)
Ärende: Eurozone inflation
==========================
Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Roy Witt:

 GK>>> You have been to Europe?

 RW>> You don't know? Amazing!

 GK> You are not that much of a world wonder and didn't make it to the
 GK> evening news.

That's because I'm a secret agent.

 RW>>>> It's similar to 'if you want a bird and cage, buy the cage
 RW>>>> first'..

 GK>>> So you got it. Fine.

 RW>> You're not conversing with your typical European dummy.

 GK> That's why I am still not sure if you /really/ got it.

I know, that's because you're used to conversing with the typical European
dummy. Check your mirror sometime.

 GK>>>>> Concerning firearms, you are badly informed, though.

 RW>>>> Nahhh. There are more intelligent people in Germany that have
 RW>>>> correctly surmized the facts.

 GK>>> Whereever you got your information from - they're wrong.

 RW>> LOL! No, I don't think so.

 GK> Sure, you are missing vital organs for thinking, so how could you.

You really don't know about brains, since yours are missing.

 RW>>>> And they must keep them in a locked up facility, not at home.

 GK>>> Nope.

 RW>> Sure about that?

 GK> Yes.

A friend of mine, a German citizen has spelled it out for you:

===
Dear Roy,

Sorry for the delay. I've been busy at the IWA fair: a firearms convention
like the Shot Show in Vegas. I met Mrs. Hoy Versnel of the Second
Amendment Foundation and many other people from the pro-gun movement from
all over the world. There was lots of talking, well you know . . . You
asked for information about German gun laws; for a better understanding
why Germans often only have few guns. Here's the basic story . . .

In general, Germans may posses firearms, including semi-automatic
handguns/rifles. There are restrictions on the weapon's caliber, barrel
length and brass size. Everything larger than 20mm - 20mm comes within
German "War Weapons Control Act"-is considered unlawful for private users.

To possess firearms, an individual's needs must provide the state with a
reason why they want to buy, own and shoot a particular gun. This can be:
sport shooting, hunting or collector/surveyor (the rarest form of gun
ownership). There are different requirements to receive permission for
each use:

Sport Shooting

You have to be a member of an established shooting club, certified by this
sport shooting society for at least 12 months. Before you can buy your
first gun you also have to . . .

- provide proof of at least 18 practice sessions within 12 months (i.e.
with a rental gun at your shooting club)

- pass a governmental exam of general firearms knowledge (use, laws,
handling etc.)

- receive a letter from your certified shooting society stating that you
need a gun or guns for a specific shooting discipline (e.g., "precision
shooting cal. <.38 25 meters")

- provide a form establishing that you have no criminal records

If you manage to jump through all those hoops, the state grants you the
right to own two hand guns and first three semi-auto rifles. However, you
are only allowed to buy two fire arms within six months.

You also receive two different types of owner cards: a yellow "sport
shooters firearms owner card" and a green "firearms owner card".

Yellow Card

With the yellow card you are allowed to buy single shot and repeating
rifles with a rifled barrel, and double-barreled shotguns (over-and-under
only, no semi-auto, no pumps). Defacto you go to your gun dealer, show
your yellow card and buy such a gun.

The dealer records the sale on your card and informs the authority
responsible for your place of living. You have to go to your local
authority within 14 days to get a confirmation; they put a seal on your
card. The purchased gun must be suitable for a discipline offered by any
certified german shooting society (not necessarily the club where you
qualified).

Green Card

All other weapons which don't apply to the yellow card must be recorded on
the gren card. For example, pistols, revolvers, semi-autos, pump action
shotguns etc.

It's more difficult to purchase a firearm with you green card. First, you
must maintain your status as a sports shooter (18 training sessions within
12 months). You have to file a petition with your shooting societey for a
discipline (i.e. "pistol combined shooting cal. <9mm, 25 meters").

With copies of both cards (green and yellow) you must show that you
actually don't have another example of the gun you want to buy, or another
gun which fits the mentioned discipline. Two guns in same caliber are
allowed-but only if you are a succesful shooter at state level (as a
backup gun for competition purposes.

If your shooting society provides permission for the new gun, your
gun-authority or responsible police office must then endorse the green
card, giving you specific permission to buy the specific type of gun. This
record is valid for one year.

After you buy the gun, you have to follow the same procedure as stated
above: the dealer records the sale to the card and informs the authority
responsible for your place of living. Again, you have 14 days to go to
your authority to receive a confirmation (a seal affixed to your card).

As you can imagine, I have much more than 18 practice sessions within 12
months.

There are many types of hand guns and rifles which are generaly not
allowed for sport shooting purposes, such as rifles with barrels <40cm,
bullet case <40mm

Hunting

To receive a hunting license you must . . .

- pass a government exam of general knowledge (firearms use, laws,
handling etc.). The hunters' exam is very expensive (apx. 2000 EUR). The
failure rate is high (apx. 60-70 percent). You have to learn "butchery,"
"veterinary," "ranger," "groundsman," "lawyer," "gunsmith" and
"ballistic."

- provide extended personal record. This includes any information on any
government conviction or fine

- purchase a hunting license for one year (apx. 120 EUR)

If you pass the hunting exam and receive a hunting license, you are
allowed to buy as many rifles as you can securely store. You're allowed
only two handguns-one in .22lr and one heavy-caliber, both for coup de
grƒce and questing.

You have to regularly renew (buy) your hunting license, which always
requires a criminal background check. There's no hunting quota; you can be
a hunter without shooting any animal anytime but with your safe full of
rifles and ammo.

You also have to use your "green card" as a permit to buy a firearm with
your hunting license. Once again, the dealer records any and all gun sales
on the card and informs the authority responsible for your place of
living, triggering the 14 day deadline for an official seal on the card.

As a hunter, you can buy some weapons which are not allowed to sport
shooters (or only with special permit). Those include pump-action shotguns
(as many you can afford) and short-barreled semi-auto rifles (>40cm
barrell, compact black rifles like a mp5, m16).

Unfortunately, you are not welcome with such "harvesters" at a hunting
party. Those are restricted to semi-autos with two-shot magazines. This
goes back to the "Reich hunting law" by the "Reich Hunting Minister"
Herman Goering. The Allies weren't rigorous enough mucking out those
Nazi-crap with their tommy guns and Garands in 1945. Seem your grandpas
forget to leave a Second Amendment for us. :v(

Anyway, most German hunters are over 50 years old. Young people have
little interest in becoming a hunter; it's expensive, difficult (exam) and
your collegues are almost near to death. Aside from this, hunters don't
get much respect in German society. "Bambi-killer," "boozing companion"
and "sex murderer" are some of the better insults they receive.

Collecting

As indicated above, collectors are the rarest group of all German gun
owners. To become a gun-collector and get the "red collector card," you
have to pass a test on the topic of your collection. For example, you must
have profound knowledge of "German handguns of the Wehrmacht" or "long
rifles with Mauser-system until 1945." The two main restrictions: the year
of the weapons' construction may only extend until 1945 and the subject
must be specific. No "Weapons of the Allies" or "German handguns."

After you get the red collectors card, you are allowed to buy guns which
apply to your chosen collection area. The purchase procedure is same as a
hunter: no mandatory endorsement by third party but reporting to the
authority by seller and the buyer with confirmation. Oh, and you need a
separate permit to buy ammunition for the collected guns.

Concealed Carry

In general, a legal gun owner may not receive a Concealed Carry (CC)
permit. The government only grants a CC is to people in serious danger of
bodily harm of kidnapping, regardless of their status as hunters, sport
shooters, collectors or none of the above. Needless to say, politicians at
state level are automaticly allowed a CC permit.

Again, as a "normal citizen" you have to establish that you in terrible
danger. Being shot more than one time is considered adequate proof that
you qualify. Being murdered is the best proof to get a CC. Unfortunately,
a posthumous CC isn't much use. The state does not allow citizens to be
buried with a loaded weapon.

Transporting Guns

The "group of the three" legal gun owners must carry their guns within a
closed and locked case, separate from the ammo. Fast access is prohibited.
A gun must not be ready to threat/shoot within 10 seconds. The "locked"
provision came into force after the school shooting of Winnenden (near
Stuttgart) at 3/11/09.

A licensed hunter is only allowed to carry his loaded gun within his
hunting ground. If he has to cross a street or motorway to get from one
hunting area to the next, he must unload and lock all his guns and enter
the second area before unlocking and reloading the guns.

So you now know how to get a gun or rifle here in Germany. Please note
that it's much easier (and cheaper) to get a driver's license for a 20t
gasoline truck. For example, there's no need for a background-check to
drive such a "bomb on wheels." Crazy laws all over.

Next time I will write a gun review for your "Armed Intelligentsia."
Please tell me which gun of mine is of most interest to you. If there are
questions left, don't hesitate to contact me. Kind regards and keep your
powder dry, Gung-Ho!

Oliver
===

 RW>> I'm a life member of the NRA...the NRA provides material on firearm
 RW>> statistics on various subjects, including the firearm laws of
 RW>> Germany.
 RW>> They're never wrong.

 GK> That's what they tell you.

That's what the facts reveal.

 GK> If you are interested, you can start reading here:
 GK> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany>

You don't actually expect me to believe that crap do you? Anybody can
write there and it can be most uninformative.

 GK>>>  Counting yourself would explain why the numbers come out wrong.

 RW>> Actually, the numbers you provided were wrong...nothing unusual for
 RW>> a country that keeps its citizens in the dark and feeds them false
 RW>> information.

 GK> The numbers were provided by a website hosted in Australia,

Ahhhh, that's why the numbers are wrong.

 GK> you should complain there.

I would have to give a shit first.

 GK> Certainly in the US you are free to be as stupid as you like,

Yes, we still have Europeans migrating here. The ones with no brains at
all it seems.

 GK> as criminal as you like, but certainly free...
 GK> Just not free enough to be allowed to buy really dangerous stuff like
 GK> Kinder chocolate eggs, though.

Make sure you read the email I got from my friend Oliver, above. Like I
said before, you have no firearms freedom, just hoops to jump through in
hopes that you can aquire them.

 GK>>> For the registration part, just wait some time, you'll get it
 GK>>> sooner or later.

 RW>> You forget, I live in Texas...the laws of Texas don't necessarily
 RW>> follow
 RW>> federal law, in fact, they defy it more often than not. i.e. It is
 RW>> against
 RW>> Texas law for any state or local policing agency to enforce certain
 RW>> federal laws. This includes registration and bans on firearms called
 RW>> 'assault weapons' (in error) and bans on detachable clips of more
 RW>> than 10
 RW>> rounds. I own several of these with 20 and 30 round clips and I keep
 RW>> all of this in my home, not in some locked up gun club...

 GK> Sure, do whatever you like (as long as you stay in Texas); laws in
 GK> Texas will change, too.

Oh yes, they'll change, but not in a way that you think they will. Used to
be that one had to carry the same type of firearm that one trained with to
obtain a concealed carry (CC) permit. No more. The law now reads that you
can carry either a semi-auto pistol or a revolver. And a few weeks ago, a
law was passed allowing CC on school campuses.

So now, I can carry my .44 magnum S&W (revolver) on campus. It's a brute,
but heavy enough to use as a club if need be. Used to be that I could only
carry my Gov't model 1911 .45acp..

 GK> But you're old, you'll probably not see it.

I doubt that my grandchildrens, grandkids kid's will see it.

 GK>>> But stay calm: it's mainly useless.

 RW>> History has passed you by or maybe they don't teach you these things
 RW>> from
 RW>> your past. Adolph Hitler stated that he knew who had firearms and
 RW>> used the
 RW>> 'registration' list to collect them. If they were hidden, then he
 RW>> collected the registered owner and put him in a nice place that the
 RW>> person
 RW>> was so pleased to be in that he was never seen again.

 GK> Right, history has passed. It does not work this way anymore, at
 GK> least not here.

It never did...

 GK>>>  Something like three weeks ago, my neighbour shot the head of the
 GK>>> district authority. He used a S&W Magnum that was registered to
 GK>>> him,

 RW>> He must belong to the NEO-NAZI party that is always murdering people
 RW>> they
 RW>> don't like. They're always being prosecuted, for somthing, so that's
 RW>> no
 RW>> wonder.

 GK> I do not know of a Neo-Nazi party murdering people they don't like.
 GK> Do you?

Hell, I even like the old-Nazi party murderers.

 GK> I don't know what ticked him off. The district insisted that he had
 GK> to tear down a garden fence that was 30cm too high, maybe that did
 GK> it?

Isn't building a fence without a permit and plan in Germany another
freedom that you don't have?

 GK>>> but should have taken away from him when he lost his weapon's
 GK>>> license back in 1988.

 RW>> LOL! Are you sure his S&W magnum weapon was registered? BTW, it is

 GK> Yes.

Of course, that's how the authorities knew he had it.

 RW>> standard operating procedure (SOP) to hide an illegal firearm in
 RW>> your neighbor's house.

 GK> That's why I said that registers are pretty much useless these days,

LOL! Seems not to be the case in Germany.

 GK> because you cannot prosecute people like in the old days that are
 GK> more familiar to you.

They need to find the weapon first, then confiscate it. There's nothing to
stop the police from entering his home and searching for it short of a
lack of a search warrant. But then there is the oft carried 'John Doe'
search warrant. They don't get away without that, not even here.


         R\%/itt


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