Text 3757, 310 rader
Skriven 2005-10-11 18:45:00 av CHARLES ANGELICH (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av MAURICE KINAL
Ärende: software for linspire
=============================

123c7d65b0c2
linux



Hello Maurice - 

CA>> I would guess-timate that Microsoft continues to have
CA>> 70-90% of the desktops. Macs account for a few but not
CA>> sure how many. 

MK> I haven't run into any Macs lately around here. 

My brother-in-law (professonal artist) uses a Mac and Alan
Zisman (Win95 moderator) uses a Mac. Those are the only ones I
know of being used lately. 

CA>> A bit of inertia (for me) lately but once I get moving on
CA>> it I expect to stay with it indefinitely. I will have to
CA>> keep at least one Windows machine for the
CA>> sound/graphics/video but that's not a problem. 

MK> If you say so. I have discovered better Linux apps for all
MK> the above except that they tend to be less user friendly to
MK> set up and, most often, use. 

If you could list examples I would save the list for future
reference. :-) 

MK> The problem is that Linux apps tend to lean towards
MK> absolute power, which requires one to learn in order to
MK> exploit. 

I lean towards configurable applications and am more than
willing to put in the time to learn the terminology used for
advanced functions. 

MK> MS cannot compete with Linux in the area of quality and
MK> power. MS software is crippleware at best. It is for
MK> sheeple and not for hardcore computer users. On all the
MK> above listed criteria Linux is better. 

With Lucasfilms and others moving to linux I would hope some
portion of what they learn in the process would leak down to us
mere mortals in opensource applications. :-) 

CA>> Just SourceForge is almost overwhelming in quantity of
CA>> linux projects and then there are the other sources plus
CA>> individual projects. It would be difficult to index all of
CA>> it I think much less have intimate knowledge of all that
CA>> is available for linux. 

MK> Right. I don't bother anymore. Far too much and I already
MK> know what I want so they aren't always much help. Also
MK> SourceForge's pages are hard to read using lynx and never
MK> tell me what I want to know anyhow. 

SourcForge pages are hard to decipher with _any_ browser. They
are a perfect example of the old saying "Programmers write
obfuscated documentation". :-) 

I look for the 'homepage' URL and go there where, in some
cases, there are newer versions to be found as well. 

CA>> First a person would have to know the word "Linux" and
CA>> have some idea what that was then find a person who could
CA>> tell them where to find the files. So ... I guess the
CA>> right question would be something like "Where can I get a
CA>> working copy of the Linux files?". Before the internet was
CA>> 'popular' the files would exist only on _certain_ BBS
CA>> scattered around the world. :-) 

MK> I managed to get started without any of them. Mind you I
MK> have never been your average computer user either so that
MK> probably explains why. Also I am fearless for the mostpart
MK> when it comes to PC's as I treat them fairly rough if they
MK> don't listen to me. Bottomline is the job gets done even if
MK> things have to get seriously altered to achieve that end. 

The thing is, at the start, linux was not being discussed in
many places and the files weren't readily available. 

MK> I like Fido for echoes and shooting the breeze in them. It
MK> hasn't been a source of knowledge for me ... much. 

Way back when FIDO was a mass of information. The 'C' and 'Hard
Drive' echos were really quite amazing. If I had saved them I
could plagarize a good book about either topic. For many years
FIDO has been 'dumbing down' closer to average users level. Not
that I'm so very knowledgeable but I was accustom to running to
keep up, now I stroll. 

CA>> Younger 'experts' are not finding their way to FIDO for a
CA>> multitude of reasons. 

MK> I suppose. What do you suggest to change that? 

As I've mentioned below, a livecd with the necessary software
to locate, login, download, read/reply, and upload FIDO echo
messages would help. 

I was running a FIDO page with explanations as to what FIDO was
and is now with links to DOS and W31 softare for FIDO access
along with links to other FIDO related pages (BBS access
numbers mainly). When the attitude and aptitude of the typical
FIDO echo message began to change I removed that webpage from
my website. I couldn't really recommend coming to FIDO for
sarcasm and insults. 

CA>> "Time is the destroyer of ALL things". 

MK> Also a creator. 

Indirectly yes. Chaos does create as it destroys but much of
what it creates has no useful purpose. 

CA>> I agree. The CLI for linux is very useful once a person
CA>> becomes acquainted with it. 

MK> It is power. 

To those who will RTFM and put in the time to learn to use it. 

CA>> I'm only comfortable with hardware issues at the time I'm
CA>> dealing with them. Once I get everything resolved I move
CA>> on to other things and begin to forget the details. 

MK> The note taking idea is best I find. 

I tried that many times and get so involved at the keyboard
when I am close to solution that I forget to continue the
notes. I wind up with very basic "how to start" notes and none
of the important finishing bits. :-( 

CA>> same issues daily it would be 'easier'. Trying to be on
CA>> top of 'everything' is difficult. 

MK> To say the least. I hear ya! Boy do I hear ya! 

CA>> When I got involved with my two mini-installs there were
CA>> some stumbling blocks trying to add FIDO access to the
CA>> installs. 

MK> For sure. 

CA>> 1.) linux users don't think zmodem is worth having and
CA>> don't really know much about it. 

MK> I know and have completely ditched it. You don't need it.
MK> Much better stuff available to achieve the same end. 

For access to the bulk of FIDO BBS and echo messagebase zmodem
is the most efficient tool for uploading and downloading. BBBS
and possibly a few others have been testing other protocols but
for the most part it's best to use zmodem right now. Tomorrow I
hope to see FTP up/downloading if FIDO lives that long. 

CA>> Took me awhile to find out there was a modified 'telnet'
CA>> that has zmodem capability. Ztelnet works but it's a bit
CA>> awkward - spawns a shell for sz/rz which isn't how it's
CA>> been done in DOS/Windows. 

MK> Also it is abandonware. I doubt you could compile the
MK> source here without heavy-duty hacking. It isn't worth it. 

See above. 

CA>> 2.) The word 'zip' has been misappropriated by others
CA>> writing compression utilities (gzip, bzip2, etc.) so that
CA>> finding a PKzip compatible utility becomes a process of
CA>> being told repeatedly "You _should_ use Bzip2 because it
CA>> comrpesses better" which is irrelevant because it's
CA>> incompatible with DOS BBS use of 'zip' archives. I finally
CA>> found InfoZip. :-) 

MK> I have it here, have since the beginning, to deal with DOS
MK> and Windows people. I don't use it for myself. Personally I
MK> wish it would just disappear completely. It is of no
MK> consequence in the grand scheme of things, never has been,
MK> and probably never will be. Listen to the 'gurus' on this
MK> issue. 

I'm not disputing the rates of compression, I'm saying the
majority of the BBS don't offer Bzip2 compression (last time I
checked). 

CA>> 3.) Those who haven't been accessing BBS are unaware of
CA>> offline readers. I happened to have had some
CA>> correspondence with William McBride some years ago and
CA>> knew his MultiMail was available in both source code and
CA>> linux binaries. I also had been using ATP which compiles
CA>> for *nix OS as well as DOS. For average newbies finding an
CA>> OLR might be problematic. 

MK> Yeah. Easily resolved if the formats get ditched. 

Every conversation about ditching QWK ends with no commitment
to create a replacement. BlueWave was popular and continues to
be used somewhat but the author disappeared long ago and even
his friends couldn't find him (he happens to have been living
in Michigan just 45 minutes from where I am now). 

CA>> 4.) How to locate a FIDO BBS isn't obvious to the
CA>> uninitiated. 

MK> True. What do you suggest? 

FIDO users with websites could add a link to other webpages
with FIDO BBS listings on their index pages or create their own
web page of BBS addresses. 

CA>> 5.) Many linux installs have non-functioning dialup
CA>> routines that need 'fixing'. I had to completely replace
CA>> the PPP dialer for both of my mini-installs and THAT (PPP
CA>> dialup) is something no one seemed to really understand. I
CA>> had to get help from a UNIX group on usenet. 

MK> This I know nothing about. I haven't used a dialup modem
MK> for a decade now. I did have an external one working back
MK> then but I lost interest in it since it went nowhere.
MK> Nobody local was interested so it made no sense to have a
MK> 24/7 system on a dedicated line. Too expensive just for
MK> nothing. 

For a BBS, probably so, for a user who needs dialup access to
their ISP it's more of an imperative.

CA>> 6.) An editor that works in a way similar to a Windows/DOS
CA>> editor would help ease newbies into the process of posting
CA>> to FIDO echos. The SCO editor, JOE, and others (I forget
CA>> which but there are some linux editors that look very much
CA>> like DOS editors). 

MK> Yep. I believe MBSE BBS takes the above issue into account. 

Online reading/replying is a bit tedious (usually). I was
referring to an installed editor for the offline reader to
access. 

CA>> A _working_ dialup install containing all of the above,
CA>> preferably on a livecd, might give FIDO a shot in the arm?
CA>> I think DamnSmallLinux is a CLI SlackWare livecd? Add all
CA>> of the above to that and distribute it from SourceForge? 

MK> ttylinux is what I use since it is the best bar none. I
MK> have been seriously contemplating the above issues to make
MK> a BBS using ttylinux as the base. An extremely good
MK> foundation for a project like that. 

A minimal linux would be acceptable if the purpose was to
access FIDO message bases. 

MK> Hm. Now that you bring it up I am going to have to talk to
MK> the MBSE guru about this issue. I think that might be the
MK> way to go. 

BBS used to frequently customize terminal software specifically
for access to their BBS. I think an image file of a minimal
linux with all the applications necessary to access a BBS and
do FIDO offline reads/replies would be a good thing for a BBS
to promote. Particularly BBBS and other linux BBS. 

CA>> Well when evangelizing linux telling them how helpless
CA>> they are won't gain 'converts'. :-) 

MK> I am not an evangelist. I'd rather the mindless lazy bums
MK> stuck with pirating MS crap then screwing up Linux and I am
MK> not afraid to tell them that too. They are dead weight by
MK> their own choosing and tend to do a shoddy job of a crap
MK> job to begin with.  Ye ol' heave-ho applies in this
MK> circumstance. ;-) 

Understood. 

CA>> I think of it as a process of refining. Get as many people
CA>> involved as possible and then let the natural process of
CA>> 'selection' or 'survival of the fitest' trim that number
CA>> down then restart the process again etc. I think I see
CA>> this happening with Apple computers frequently as the
CA>> 'group' grows, shrinks, then grows again. 

MK> Could be. It isn't my choice nor do I wish it to be. If
MK> someone is serious and wants help I am more then willing to
MK> share. If they pay me BIG bucks to do it for them I will
MK> but not otherwise. 

:-) 

CA>> Everything that involves a person on an emotional or
CA>> highly focused mental level is that way, yes. 

MK> Yeah I get over emotional every once and awhile. I don't
MK> mind but others around me tend to shirk when I do. The ones
MK> that know me well tend to smile when I get that way since
MK> they know I am harmless. Shhhhhhhh ... don't tell anyone. 

They tell me that a possum, if cornered, might kill a dog that
was chasing it. :-) 

>
>        ,                          ,
>      o/      Charles.Angelich      \o       ,
>     <|                              |>  __o/
>     / >          USA, MI           < \   __\__
 

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