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 lista första sista föregående nästa
Text 2000, 352 rader
Skriven 2005-01-16 15:21:16 av Rich (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 1988 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Usage history
=========================
From: "Rich" <@>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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   No true.  There is plenty to betray you.  Your ISP of course knows =
the sites you visit as does anyone that can see even the small subset of =
traffic for DNS resolution.  Your browser's cache and history also serve = this
purpose.  There are plenty more.

   The attacker can also take a different approach that is likely more =
effective anyway.  Pick a high value site and try the stolen IDs on = them. 
Amazon may not use single sign-in but you don't care because it = does not
matter.  Then try them again at Citibank.  Then again at = whatever site you
want. This approach will have more value then trying = to sign in at match.com
using AOL's screenname service or Microsoft's = Passport, both of which it
supports.

Rich

  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net...
  the difference between single sign on and the practice of using the =
same username/password on multiple sites is that with the single = password
there is no function to betray the user. In other words there = is nothing but
the user to connect all those sites together. With the = single sign on, all
you need is a list of sites that uses that single = sign on service.

  Geo.
    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net...
       There was an optional wallet service and you are right, this =
additional optional service could not be anonymous.  You aren't = comparing
apples to apples if you include the people that made a choice = to use this. 
Folks that wanted to be anonymous would not choose this.

       Really, this argument is silly.  I don't know you but too many =
people I know use the same password on the many sites that require them = to
register, whether they lie or not.  Their intent is to have something = that
acts like single sign-in.   Now I'm sure the people arguing against =
single sign-in here are not hypocrits and all use distinct unique = usernames,
email addresses, passwords, etc for each and every account = they have.  Don't
you?

    Rich

      "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in =
message news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com...
      Well, if you only use Passport as a signin, yes.  But there was a =
piece
      to it where it would know your credit card information so when you =
used
      it to log on to a site where you wanted to buy stuff you wouldn't =
have
      to enter the credit card information.   It would be impossible to =
use
      that part and be anonymous.

      On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in message
      <41e30b2c@w3.nls.net>:

      >   I disagree.  Passport is no less anonymous than other signin =
mechanisms.  You are in control of the information you provide to create = your
signin.  If you want to lie then lie.
      >
      >Rich
      >
      >  "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in =
message news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com...
      >  I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they don't =
disclose...
      >  his message gave examples of people trying to be anonymous... =
but
      >  someone trying to be anonymous wouldn't use Passport (unless =
they were
      >  REALLY stupid) so I'm not quite following the logic either.
      >
      >  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:25 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in message
      >  <41e1720a@w3.nls.net>:
      >
      >  >   The fragment you chose to quote is interesting.  How many =
services claim that they do not disclose info as required by law?
      >  >
      >  >   The rest is garbage.
      >  >
      >  >Rich
      >  >
      >  >  "Mike N." <mike@u-spam-u-die.net> wrote in message =
news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com...
      >  >  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote:
      >  >
      >  >  > If you mean to question what Passport is to Microsoft you =
should use Microsoft's claims about the service
      >  >
      >  >  http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033
      >  >
      >  >  "NET Passport may disclose personal information if required =
to do so by law
      >  >  or in the good-faith belief that such action is necessary =
to: (a) conform
      >  >  to legal requirements or comply with legal process served on =
Microsoft;"
      >  >
      >  >     This confirms the information I already had.  A single =
signon is for
      >  >  convenience, not security.  Sure your ISP can see what =
you're doing.  They
      >  >  can initiate a wiretap when served by a subpoena.  However =
there are many
      >  >  people for which this won't suffice -
      >  >     o terrorists who jump from Cafe to Cafe.
      >  >    o  commuters who use wireless internet services from =
Starbucks, at work,
      >  >  airports, etc.
      >  >    o Those who attempt to escape identity by wardriving from =
open wireless
      >  >  to open wireless LAN.
      >  >      Investigators would need to obtain subpoenas from =
thousands of ISPs to
      >  >  cover all activities of a person.   Alternatively, assuming =
that .NET is in
      >  >  widespread use, they would just need to subpoena Microsoft =
to get a
      >  >  complete profile of sites where a signon was used, and the =
IP
      >  >  address/date/time they were accessed from.
      >  >
      >  >     It still appears that if anyone gets your passport  =
login, they can
      >  >  assume your signon, just as if they are you.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.1289" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; No true.&nbsp; There is =
plenty to=20
betray you.&nbsp; Your ISP of course knows the sites you visit as does =
anyone=20
that can see even the small subset of traffic for DNS resolution.&nbsp; =
Your=20
browser's cache and history also serve this purpose.&nbsp; There are =
plenty=20
more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The attacker can also take =
a different=20
approach that is likely more effective anyway.&nbsp; Pick a high value = site
and=20
try the stolen IDs on them.&nbsp; Amazon may not use single sign-in but =
you=20
don't care because it does not matter.&nbsp; Then try them again at=20
Citibank.&nbsp; Then again at whatever site you want. This approach will =
have=20
more value then trying to sign in at match.com using AOL's screenname = service
or=20
Microsoft's Passport, both of which it supports.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote=20
  in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4570@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the difference between single sign on =
and the=20
  practice of using the same username/password on multiple sites is that =
with=20
  the single password there is no function to betray the user. In other =
words=20
  there is nothing but the user to connect all those sites together. =
With the=20
  single sign on, all you need is a list of sites that uses that single =
sign on=20
  service.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
    =
href=3D"news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f6c1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; There was an optional =
wallet=20
    service and you are right, this additional optional service could =
not be=20
    anonymous.&nbsp; You aren't comparing apples to apples if you =
include the=20
    people that made a choice to use this.&nbsp; Folks that wanted to be =

    anonymous would not choose this.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Really, this argument =
is=20
    silly.&nbsp; I don't know you but too many people I know use the =
same=20
    password on the many sites that require them to register, whether =
they lie=20
    or not.&nbsp; Their intent is to have something that acts like =
single=20
    sign-in.&nbsp;&nbsp; Now I'm sure the people arguing against single =
sign-in=20
    here are not hypocrits and all use distinct unique usernames, email=20
    addresses, passwords, etc for each and every account they =
have.&nbsp; Don't=20
    you?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV>"Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:ldqju0pdbclq8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com">news:ldqju0pdbcl=
q8l54fbhi21220l86uibp28@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>Well,=20
      if you only use Passport as a signin, yes.&nbsp; But there was a=20
      piece<BR>to it where it would know your credit card information so =
when=20
      you used<BR>it to log on to a site where you wanted to buy stuff =
you=20
      wouldn't have<BR>to enter the credit card information.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
It=20
      would be impossible to use<BR>that part and be =
anonymous.<BR><BR>On Mon,=20
      10 Jan 2005 15:09:44 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in =
message<BR>&lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:41e30b2c@w3.nls.net">41e30b2c@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR><BR>&=
gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      I disagree.&nbsp; Passport is no less anonymous than other signin=20
      mechanisms.&nbsp; You are in control of the information you =
provide to=20
      create your signin.&nbsp; If you want to lie then=20
      lie.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Rich<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:c5h4u0p76hl80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com">news:c5h4u0p76hl=
80msc3pis0v1puf9k7erkpn@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
      I think he wasn't addressing services claiming they don't=20
      disclose...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; his message gave examples of people =
trying to be=20
      anonymous... but<BR>&gt;&nbsp; someone trying to be anonymous =
wouldn't use=20
      Passport (unless they were<BR>&gt;&nbsp; REALLY stupid) so I'm not =
quite=20
      following the logic either.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; On Sun, 9 Jan =
2005=20
      10:04:25 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:41e1720a@w3.nls.net">41e1720a@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;<=
BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The fragment you chose to quote is =
interesting.&nbsp; How=20
      many services claim that they do not disclose info as required by=20
      law?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The rest is =

      garbage.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;Rich<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; "Mike N." &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:mike@u-spam-u-die.net">mike@u-spam-u-die.net</A>&gt; = wrote
in=20
      message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:e8b2u0hias1bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com">news:e8b2u0hias1=
bdkdgbe34mf26snbcna0ov4@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;&nbsp; On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:48:12 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt;=20
      wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; If you =
mean to=20
      question what Passport is to Microsoft you should use Microsoft's =
claims=20
      about the service<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; <A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033">htt=
p://www.passport.net/Consumer/PrivacyPolicy.asp?lc=3D1033</A><BR>&gt;&nbs=
p;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; "NET Passport may disclose personal=20
      information if required to do so by law<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; =
or in the=20
      good-faith belief that such action is necessary to: (a)=20
      conform<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; to legal requirements or comply =
with=20
      legal process served on Microsoft;"<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This confirms the information I =
already=20
      had.&nbsp; A single signon is for<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; =
convenience,=20
      not security.&nbsp; Sure your ISP can see what you're doing.&nbsp; =

      They<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; can initiate a wiretap when served =
by a=20
      subpoena.&nbsp; However there are many<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; =
people for=20
      which this won't suffice -<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o=20
      terrorists who jump from Cafe to Cafe.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; commuters who use wireless internet =

      services from Starbucks, at work,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; =
airports,=20
      etc.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o Those who attempt to =
escape=20
      identity by wardriving from open wireless<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; =
to open=20
      wireless LAN.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      Investigators would need to obtain subpoenas from thousands of =
ISPs=20
      to<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; cover all activities of a =
person.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      Alternatively, assuming that .NET is in<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;=20
      widespread use, they would just need to subpoena Microsoft to get=20
      a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; complete profile of sites where a =
signon was=20
      used, and the IP<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; address/date/time they =
were=20
      accessed from.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It still appears that if anyone gets =
your=20
      passport&nbsp; login, they can<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; assume =
your=20
      signon, just as if they are=20
you.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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