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Text 2064, 444 rader
Skriven 2005-01-18 17:45:56 av Rich (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 2057 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Do we protect users from their own stupidity?
=========================================================
From: "Rich" <@>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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   Full headers, yes.  In the options dialog.

Rich

  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:41eda613@w3.nls.net...
  In the current version of Outlook, is there a way to view the source =
for an email without opening the email first like you can do in Outlook =
express?=20

  Geo.
    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41ec70a9@w3.nls.net...
       Or care to do any of those three?  It is easy enough to do them =
all in any of the Microsoft email clients I use.  People don't becuase = they
don't care to.  Those that care do.

    Rich

      "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in =
message news:ltcou0lhvanrbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com...
      Periodically I get phishing emails pretending to be from ebay, and =
they
      even manage to get "ebay" into the headers, but if you look up the =
IP
      address of course you find out it's not... but what percentage of =
users
      A) know how to find the header;
      B) know how to read it; or
      C) know how to look up an IP address?

      On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:01 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in message
      <41eaf508@w3.nls.net>:

      >   I disagree.
      >
      >   People do very much know the difference between their own =
computer and the other computers referenced in phishing attacks.  They = know
that email comes from somewhere outside their computer.  They know = the web
site to which they are referred is not their computer.  They = still are
fooled.
      >
      >   People know they are choosing to download and install software =
from the Internet.  What they may not know is that it is or contains = spyware.
 There is no confusion over boundaries.
      >
      >   I believe your whole idea of trust is off base.  People aren't =
making decisions on whether or not to trust particular machines.  I = douby
very much most people even think that way.  People place trust in = other
people or in some cases who they believe those people are.  = Phishing attacks
for bank sites succeed because the people the fall pray = to them believe that
the people sending the email are valid = representitives of the bank and they
trust those people.
      >
      >   As for your initial premise, I honestly don't know what it is =
you believe is consistent that should not be or is different that should = not
be.  You can't be referring to the browser which is almost never = used for the
local computer and clearly identifies what is local and = what is not.
      >
      >   Your claim regarding phishing is also wrong.  The address bar =
is one possible indicator to users.  Phishing attacks preceeded any of = these
and continue without them.  I've seen phishing emails that make no = attempt to
mask the domain to which they refer.  People still get = fooled.  The address
bar probably means little to many users.  I can = tell when speaking with and
helping non-technical users that even though = they get that they type into the
address bar to go to a site they do not = always get that it is overloaded to
provide feedback to them where they = have gone.  The same with the status bar.
 Their have been status bar = spoofs.  They make little difference.  Do any of
these make a difference = to you so that you would be fooled?
      >
      >Rich
      >
      >  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net...
      >  part of the reason it's so easy to fool people is because of =
Microsoft. Remember some years ago when I said to make a consistant = interface
that blurs the line between the local machine and remote = machines/internet
machines was a mistake? Well that's one of the big = reasons why people today
are so easy to fool. They don't understand the = concept of trusted/untrusted
machines because it all looks the same to = them. They honestly don't know
where their machine ends and the rest of = the world begins.
      >
      >  I understood the logic behind making that a consistent =
interface and blurring the line but I saw the problem with it as well. = How is
a user to know the difference between a remote website and a help = page from
one of their own programs if there is no difference?
      >
      >  As for not knowing anyone who was infected due to the exploit =
of a bug, doesn't phishing work because of a bug that allows IE to show = one
address in the address bar while in fact it's talking to another = address?
What, doesn't that count?
      >
      >  Geo.
      >    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net...
      >       You can't protect them from their own stupidity.  I've =
seen plenty of examples of people getting infected with spyware due to = their
own explicit actions, either approving when asked if something = should be
installed or explicitly downloading and installing something = that is or
includes spyware.  I do not know of anyone personally that = was infected due
to an exploit of a bug.  Phishing is another example = that relies almost
entirely on people being to trusting and doing = something they shouldn't.  I
haven't seen an email virus in a long time = that did not rely on the user
following instructions in the email to act = against his own interest and run
or even save then open and run = something they shouldn't.  We are well beyond
what many folks would = consider security.  To protect against people making
these kinds of = mistakes you have to take choices they can't be trusted making
away from = them.  That upsets the folks that can be trusted to or want to make
= these choices unhappy.  This
      >isn't far from the idea that putting you in a straightjacket =
makes you more secure because you are less likely to hurt yourself.  As = for
how people react to this, do you remember the reaction to cars that = buzzed or
otherwise made noise when the driver or a passenger did not = wear his seat
belt?  It wasn't positive.
      >
      >    Rich
      >      "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote =
in message news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com...
      >      And that is a very big problem when trying to figure out =
what security
      >      features should be built in or what functionality should be =
allowed.  Do
      >      we protect users from their own stupidity?   I guess there =
is a
      >      rationale for doing so in that if the masses' machines are =
laxly secured
      >      (if at all), the danger to _everyone_ increases.
      >
      >      On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:07:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
      >      <41e30a96@w3.nls.net>:
      >
      >      >   I agree there are a great many people that have no =
interest in or familiarity with exercising the control available to = them. 
That will always be true. =20
      >      >
      >      >Rich
      >      >
      >      >  "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> =
wrote in message news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com...
      >      >  Well, I think this conversation is all over the place =
regarding who we
      >      >  are talking about when we talk about users.  The folks =
here are an
      >      >  entirely different animal from the famous great unwashed =
masses.
      >      >
      >      >  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
      >      >  <41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net>:
      >      >
      >      >  >   Because you are in control, my point to george.
      >      >  >
      >      >  >Rich

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Full headers, yes.&nbsp; =
In the=20
options dialog.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote=20
  in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:41eda613@w3.nls.net">news:41eda613@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the current version of Outlook, is =
there a way=20
  to view the source for an email without opening the email first like =
you can=20
  do in Outlook express? </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
    =
href=3D"news:41ec70a9@w3.nls.net">news:41ec70a9@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Or care to do any of =
those=20
    three?&nbsp; It is easy enough to do them all in any of the =
Microsoft email=20
    clients I use.&nbsp; People don't becuase they don't care to.&nbsp; =
Those=20
    that care do.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV>"Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:ltcou0lhvanrbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com">news:ltcou0lhvan=
rbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>Periodically=20
      I get phishing emails pretending to be from ebay, and they<BR>even =
manage=20
      to get "ebay" into the headers, but if you look up the =
IP<BR>address of=20
      course you find out it's not... but what percentage of users<BR>A) =
know=20
      how to find the header;<BR>B) know how to read it; or<BR>C) know =
how to=20
      look up an IP address?<BR><BR>On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:01 -0800, =
"Rich"=20
      &lt;@&gt; wrote in message<BR>&lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:41eaf508@w3.nls.net">41eaf508@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR><BR>&=
gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      I disagree.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; People do very much know =
the=20
      difference between their own computer and the other computers =
referenced=20
      in phishing attacks.&nbsp; They know that email comes from =
somewhere=20
      outside their computer.&nbsp; They know the web site to which they =
are=20
      referred is not their computer.&nbsp; They still are=20
      fooled.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; People know they are choosing =
to=20
      download and install software from the Internet.&nbsp; What they =
may not=20
      know is that it is or contains spyware.&nbsp; There is no =
confusion over=20
      boundaries.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe your whole idea =
of trust=20
      is off base.&nbsp; People aren't making decisions on whether or =
not to=20
      trust particular machines.&nbsp; I douby very much most people =
even think=20
      that way.&nbsp; People place trust in other people or in some =
cases who=20
      they believe those people are.&nbsp; Phishing attacks for bank =
sites=20
      succeed because the people the fall pray to them believe that the =
people=20
      sending the email are valid representitives of the bank and they =
trust=20
      those people.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; As for your initial =
premise, I=20
      honestly don't know what it is you believe is consistent that =
should not=20
      be or is different that should not be.&nbsp; You can't be =
referring to the=20
      browser which is almost never used for the local computer and =
clearly=20
      identifies what is local and what is =
not.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Your=20
      claim regarding phishing is also wrong.&nbsp; The address bar is =
one=20
      possible indicator to users.&nbsp; Phishing attacks preceeded any =
of these=20
      and continue without them.&nbsp; I've seen phishing emails that =
make no=20
      attempt to mask the domain to which they refer.&nbsp; People still =
get=20
      fooled.&nbsp; The address bar probably means little to many =
users.&nbsp; I=20
      can tell when speaking with and helping non-technical users that =
even=20
      though they get that they type into the address bar to go to a =
site they=20
      do not always get that it is overloaded to provide feedback to =
them where=20
      they have gone.&nbsp; The same with the status bar.&nbsp; Their =
have been=20
      status bar spoofs.&nbsp; They make little difference.&nbsp; Do any =
of=20
      these make a difference to you so that you would be=20
      fooled?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Rich<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "Geo" &lt;<A=20
      href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote in =
message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&gt;=
&nbsp;=20
      part of the reason it's so easy to fool people is because of =
Microsoft.=20
      Remember some years ago when I said to make a consistant interface =
that=20
      blurs the line between the local machine and remote =
machines/internet=20
      machines was a mistake? Well that's one of the big reasons why =
people=20
      today are so easy to fool. They don't understand the concept of=20
      trusted/untrusted machines because it all looks the same to them. =
They=20
      honestly don't know where their machine ends and the rest of the =
world=20
      begins.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; I understood the logic behind making =
that a=20
      consistent interface and blurring the line but I saw the problem =
with it=20
      as well. How is a user to know the difference between a remote =
website and=20
      a help page from one of their own programs if there is no=20
      difference?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; As for not knowing anyone who =
was=20
      infected due to the exploit of a bug, doesn't phishing work =
because of a=20
      bug that allows IE to show one address in the address bar while in =
fact=20
      it's talking to another address? What, doesn't that=20
      count?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Geo.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Rich" =

      &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      You can't protect them from their own stupidity.&nbsp; I've seen =
plenty of=20
      examples of people getting infected with spyware due to their own =
explicit=20
      actions, either approving when asked if something should be =
installed or=20
      explicitly downloading and installing something that is or =
includes=20
      spyware.&nbsp; I do not know of anyone personally that was =
infected due to=20
      an exploit of a bug.&nbsp; Phishing is another example that relies =
almost=20
      entirely on people being to trusting and doing something they=20
      shouldn't.&nbsp; I haven't seen an email virus in a long time that =
did not=20
      rely on the user following instructions in the email to act =
against his=20
      own interest and run or even save then open and run something they =

      shouldn't.&nbsp; We are well beyond what many folks would consider =

      security.&nbsp; To protect against people making these kinds of =
mistakes=20
      you have to take choices they can't be trusted making away from=20
      them.&nbsp; That upsets the folks that can be trusted to or want =
to make=20
      these choices unhappy.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt;isn't far from the idea =
that=20
      putting you in a straightjacket makes you more secure because you =
are less=20
      likely to hurt yourself.&nbsp; As for how people react to this, do =
you=20
      remember the reaction to cars that buzzed or otherwise made noise =
when the=20
      driver or a passenger did not wear his seat belt?&nbsp; It wasn't=20
      positive.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      Rich<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com">news:48qju0547j4=
l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
      And that is a very big problem when trying to figure out what=20
      security<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; features should be =
built in=20
      or what functionality should be allowed.&nbsp;=20
      Do<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; we protect users from =
their own=20
      stupidity?&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess there is=20
      a<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rationale for doing so in =
that if=20
      the masses' machines are laxly=20
      secured<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (if at all), the =
danger to=20
      _everyone_ =
increases.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On=20
      Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:07:12 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in=20
      message<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:41e30a96@w3.nls.net">41e30a96@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;<=
BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I agree there are a great many people that have =
no=20
      interest in or familiarity with exercising the control available =
to=20
      them.&nbsp; That will always be true.&nbsp;=20
      <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;Rich<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; "Ellen K." =
&lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com">news:7og4u0pj8f0=
nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
      &gt;&nbsp; Well, I think this conversation is all over the place =
regarding=20
      who we<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; are =
talking about=20
      when we talk about users.&nbsp; The folks here are=20
      an<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; entirely =
different=20
      animal from the famous great unwashed=20
      masses.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; On Sun, 9 =
Jan 2005=20
      01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in=20
      message<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net">41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      Because you are in control, my point to=20
      george.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;=20
      &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;=20
    &gt;Rich<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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