Text 6089, 282 rader
Skriven 2005-07-15 16:47:32 av Rich (1:379/45)
Kommentar till text 6086 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: eeye's irresponsible self-serving behavior
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From: "Rich" <@>
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And you confirm just how arbitrary it is. My father is my example. =
He does not know who to blame when his can't access his email or a web = site.
It could be his ISP, his separate email provider, the target web = site, or
someone else in the middle. He also doesn't know how to blame = when email he
sends doesn't get to the recipient when he expects it to. = I think you are
fooling yourself.
You say you don't secure email immediately followed by saying that =
you do. There is no huge difference. You protect some of your = customers
some of the time which is what I said earlier. You are free = to choose to but
do not pretend that there is some magic to the = arbitrary choices you make.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:42d8343d$1@w3.nls.net...
Why do I think non-technical users see a difference? Because they know =
to call the ISP when our mail server isn't responding and they know not = to
call us when the browser says page not found.
We don't secure customers when it comes to email, if they get their =
email from somewhere other than our servers we do nothing to block spam = or
virus. All we do is prevent our servers from delivering virus and we = block as
much spam as possible from being sent to our servers. There is = a huge
difference between that and securing customers.
And you're right, it is a choice, just like writing our own OS or =
building our own line of computers is a choice, so what? Why is it you = think
that because Microsoft made the choice to build their own OS we = should be
responsible for securing it?
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d81e21@w3.nls.net...
Why do you think non-technical users will see a difference =
because you use different equipment for email than you do for other = parts of
the network?
ISPs should strive to secure their customers and when it comes to =
email you have stated that you attempt to do so. It is your business = and you
are free to pick and choose if and when you protect your paying = customers.
You should just acknowledge that you do make this choice and = that your
choices are pretty much arbitrary.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d8197d$1@w3.nls.net...
Come on Rich, nobody thinks like that. Spam and email virus =
exploit email so are blocked at the mail server, if the ISP hosts the = mail
then the ISP blocks it, if the user hosts their own mail then it's = their
problem. Same with worms, they exploit the machines, the ISP = secures the web
server hosting the user's homepage but the user secures = their personal
computer.
Other types of attacks like spoofed traffic, smurf attacks and =
such are network exploits and are blocked at the network.
Why should every ISP on the planet be responsible for securing =
Microsoft's products? That's typical, make it the responsibility of = anyone
but microsoft, huh? Call anyone who tells people about exploits = irresponsible
like finding an exploit is bad, blame the network admin = for not blocking all
bad traffic without defining bad traffic, blame the = user for clicking on an
attachment that came from someone he knows after = telling him to not trust
email from people he doesn't know, blame people = for not knowing how to get to
windowsupate without getting wormed after = telling them it's really simple
just turn on automatic updates, add a = "popup blocker" after making popups
possible, man what a scam.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d72f66@w3.nls.net...
Windows XP without SP2 is still trivial. SP2 CDs are free =
and have been. See =
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/sp2/cdorder/en_us/de=
fault.mspx.
I think from real people you will find that they do not =
consider receiving attacks from the ISP's controlled network acceptable, =
particular with a lame excuse such as the one you give that the network = is
functioning as intended when it allows them to be attacked. Just = like they
don't care that your email servers deliver spam and viruses to = them because
it is functioning as intended. Oh wait, you don't appear = to believe the
latter either so you are a hypocrite too.
Rich
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> And you confirm just how =
arbitrary it=20
is. My father is my example. He does not know who to blame = when
his=20
can't access his email or a web site. It could be his ISP, his =
separate=20
email provider, the target web site, or someone else in the = middle.
He=20
also doesn't know how to blame when email he sends doesn't get to the =
recipient=20
when he expects it to. I think you are fooling = yourself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> You say you don't secure =
email=20
immediately followed by saying that you do. There is no huge=20
difference. You protect some of your customers some of the time = which
is=20
what I said earlier. You are free to choose to but do not pretend =
that=20
there is some magic to the arbitrary choices you make.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>> wrote=20
in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d8343d$1@w3.nls.net">news:42d8343d$1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Why do I think non-technical users =
see a=20
difference? Because they know to call the ISP when our mail =
server isn't=20
responding and they know not to call us when the browser says page not =
found.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We don't secure customers when it =
comes to email,=20
if they get their email from somewhere other than our servers we do =
nothing to=20
block spam or virus. All we do is prevent our servers from delivering =
virus=20
and we block as much spam as possible from being sent to our servers. =
There is=20
a huge difference between that and securing customers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And you're right, it is a choice, =
just like=20
writing our own OS or building our own line of computers is a choice, =
so what?=20
Why is it you think that because Microsoft made the choice to build =
their own=20
OS we should be responsible for securing it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d81e21@w3.nls.net">news:42d81e21@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Why do you think =
non-technical=20
users will see a difference because you use different equipment for =
email=20
than you do for other parts of the network?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> ISPs should strive to =
secure their=20
customers and when it comes to email you have stated that you =
attempt to do=20
so. It is your business and you are free to pick and choose if =
and=20
when you protect your paying customers. You should just =
acknowledge=20
that you do make this choice and that your choices are pretty much=20
arbitrary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d8197d$1@w3.nls.net">news:42d8197d$1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Come on Rich, nobody thinks like =
that. Spam=20
and email virus exploit email so are blocked at the mail =
server, if=20
the ISP hosts the mail then the ISP blocks it, if the user hosts =
their own=20
mail then it's their problem. Same with worms, they exploit the =
machines,=20
the ISP secures the web server hosting the user's homepage =
but the=20
user secures their personal computer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Other types of attacks like =
spoofed traffic,=20
smurf attacks and such are network exploits and are blocked at the =
network.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Why should every ISP on the =
planet be=20
responsible for securing Microsoft's products? That's typical, =
make it the=20
responsibility of anyone but microsoft, huh? Call anyone who tells =
people=20
about exploits irresponsible like finding an exploit is bad, blame =
the=20
network admin for not blocking all bad traffic without =
defining bad=20
traffic, blame the user for clicking on an attachment that came =
from=20
someone he knows after telling him to not trust email from people =
he=20
doesn't know, blame people for not knowing how to get to =
windowsupate=20
without getting wormed after telling them it's really simple just =
turn on=20
automatic updates, add a "popup blocker" after making popups =
possible, man=20
what a scam.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d72f66@w3.nls.net">news:42d72f66@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Windows XP without =
SP2 is=20
still trivial. SP2 CDs are free and have been. See =
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/sp2/cdorder/=
en_us/default.mspx">http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/=
sp2/cdorder/en_us/default.mspx</A>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I think from real =
people you=20
will find that they do not consider receiving attacks from the =
ISP's=20
controlled network acceptable, particular with a lame excuse =
such as the=20
one you give that the network is functioning as intended when it =
allows=20
them to be attacked. Just like they don't care that your =
email=20
servers deliver spam and viruses to them because it is =
functioning=20
as intended. Oh wait, you don't appear to believe the =
latter=20
either so you are a hypocrite too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOC=
KQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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