Text 6762, 603 rader
Skriven 2005-08-27 22:37:30 av Rich (1:379/45)
Kommentar till text 6761 av Robert Comer (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: TPM
===============
From: "Rich" <@>
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What I read didn't describe how a TPM is needed for osx in any way =
more than a claim that a firewire port is required. It isn't easy to = judge
what is going on when the prerelease software and hardware are = leased
restricted use apple property. I don't think you can infer much = from what
apple does in this restricted application to what apple plans = for public
release.
Rich
"Robert Comer" <bobcomer@mindspring.com> wrote in message =
news:43112d9a@w3.nls.net...
> I'm guessing your repeated mac osx references is aluding to =
apple's=20
> statements that they will support it only on >apple systems combined =
with=20
> the reports that the dev systems have TPMs and some osx software =
component=20
> uses >it.
Actually a bit more than that, actual reports of what it does, but it=20
matters little, it's an example of what can be done with TPM. What =
OSX does=20
with it is just an example btw, not my specific gripe.
>It would surely is a positive if you wanted to run osx and irrelevant =
if=20
>you didn't.
Nope, it's definitely not a positive to me -- if I have an identical =
PC to=20
this Apple i386 machine and the only thing that stops me from running =
OSX is=20
the TPM, that's wrong. Purchased software is purchased software.
>I think the negative to which you are trying to refer is with osx =
which=20
>will not run on the large number of >computers that other operating =
systems=20
>like Windows will.
Big negative, with no offsetting positive that benefits me. (I've =
already=20
stated I don't use a PC for anything that would require DRM)
- Bob Comer
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:431112c7@w3.nls.net...
I'm guessing your repeated mac osx references is aluding to apple's =
statements that they will support it only on apple systems combined =
with the=20
reports that the dev systems have TPMs and some osx software component =
uses=20
it. If so, that doesn't make a TPM a negative. It would surely is a=20
positive if you wanted to run osx and irrelevant if you didn't. I =
think the=20
negative to which you are trying to refer is with osx which will not =
run on=20
the large number of computers that other operating systems like =
Windows=20
will.
Rich
"Robert Comer" <bobcomer@mindspring.com> wrote in message=20
news:4310dbd2@w3.nls.net...
> What are the negatives of having a TPM?
None at the moment, unless you want to run OSX on a PC -- who knows =
about
Windows and other software in the future.
> Do you have or have you seen a recent thinkpad with one?
No, we don't buy that often.
>How about a recent toshiba laptop?
Never buy those.
>Are these lesser devices because of it?
Yes, and I'll watch for it and plan accordingly.
- Bob Comer
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:4310c98d@w3.nls.net...
I disagree.
What are the negatives of having a TPM?
Do you have or have you seen a recent thinkpad with one? How =
about a
recent toshiba laptop? Are these lesser devices because of it?
Rich
"Robert Comer" <bobcomer@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:4310c52a$1@w3.nls.net...
> You don't have to use a TPM even if your computer has one.
Right now, yes, but in the future, I doubt that it's going to be=20
optional.
Look at the beta x86 OSX -- it requires a specific TPM.
>If you just want a smartcard you could have had one for years.
I didn't say I wanted one, just that I maybe could live with in =
place of
TPM.
>A TPM builtin provides other benefits.
And negatives as well.
- Bob Comer
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:4310abaa@w3.nls.net...
You don't have to use a TPM even if your computer has one. If =
you=20
just
want a smartcard you could have had one for years. A TPM builtin=20
provides
other benefits.
Rich
"Robert Comer" <bobcomer@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43108b95$1@w3.nls.net...
> VT is virtualization.
Yep, know that, it's my specialty.
>LT is security. Neither is what george likes to call DRM.
True.
>What he tries to spin as something sinister is the smart card =
like
>functionality (e.g. secure storage, hardware crypto) >provided =
by a=20
TPM
>chip.
That's the one I don't like. A smartcard idea I maybe could =
live=20
with,
but
it would have to be both optional for the OS and machine, and =
portable
between machines. Like a key basically, I carry it to whatever=20
machine
I
happen to be using it at the time, rather than it being tied to =
a
specific
piece of hardware, and you should have the ability to own more =
than=20
just
one
key.
- Bob Comer
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:430ff6af@w3.nls.net...
VT is virtualization. LT is security. Neither is what =
george=20
likes
to
call DRM. What he tries to spin as something sinister is the =
smart=20
card
like functionality (e.g. secure storage, hardware crypto) =
provided by=20
a
TPM
chip.
Rich
"Robert Comer" <bobcomer@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:430fdaf8$1@w3.nls.net...
Yep, it looks like it's coming, probably not anything we can =
do=20
about
it
either -- it's for the masses to decide about.
For now, no DRM media stuff for me at all, I refuse to use it. =
I
don't
do
any media other than broadcast TV on my PC. I'll probably get =
a new
processor soon, with VT, dual or quad core, and yes, DRM, but =
that
doesn't
mean I have to allow the DRM part to make any difference to =
what I
want
to
do.
Eventually there will probably be some computer/OS company =
that will
emerge
to satisfy our computing needs, but for entertainment, we're =
screwed
until
everyone else catches up and they revolt.
- Bob Comer
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message=20
news:430fbaa3$1@w3.nls.net...
> All this DRM crap is nothing but a power grab so that =
technology
companies
> can enforce more restrictions on how we use technology in =
order to
extort
> more money for the same shit.
>
> Once it becomes possible to prevent you from upgrading your =
OS
without
> upgrading your computer, or to prevent you from upgrading =
your
computer
> without upgrading your OS, do you really think Intel or MS =
will be
able
to
> resist the temptation? Do you think a computer sold with =
windows
should
> allow the user to remove windows and install Linux cause I =
somehow
think
> that's the kind of limitations we are headed for.
>
> Intel is going to have to include that type of tech to make =
Apple
happy,
> especially in light of the recent news that OSX was running =
on non
Apple
> PC's already...
>
> Geo.
>
> "Robert Comer" <bobcomer@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:430eed74@w3.nls.net...
>> I don't know if any do yet, but they agreed to do drm =
hardware=20
for
> palladium
>> just like intel did.
>>
>> - Bob Comer
>
>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> What I read didn't =
describe how a TPM=20
is needed for osx in any way more than a claim that a firewire port is=20
required. It isn't easy to judge what is going on when the =
prerelease=20
software and hardware are leased restricted use apple property. I =
don't=20
think you can infer much from what apple does in this restricted = application
to=20
what apple plans for public release.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Robert Comer" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:bobcomer@mindspring.com">bobcomer@mindspring.com</A>> = wrote
in=20
message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:43112d9a@w3.nls.net">news:43112d9a@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>&g=
t; =20
I'm guessing your repeated mac osx references is aluding to apple's =
<BR>>=20
statements that they will support it only on >apple systems =
combined with=20
<BR>> the reports that the dev systems have TPMs and some osx =
software=20
component <BR>> uses >it.<BR><BR>Actually a bit more than that, =
actual=20
reports of what it does, but it <BR>matters little, it's an example of =
what=20
can be done with TPM. What OSX does <BR>with it is just an =
example btw,=20
not my specific gripe.<BR><BR>>It would surely is a positive if you =
wanted=20
to run osx and irrelevant if <BR>>you didn't.<BR><BR>Nope, it's =
definitely=20
not a positive to me -- if I have an identical PC to <BR>this Apple =
i386=20
machine and the only thing that stops me from running OSX is <BR>the =
TPM,=20
that's wrong. Purchased software is purchased =
software.<BR><BR>>I=20
think the negative to which you are trying to refer is with osx which=20
<BR>>will not run on the large number of >computers that other =
operating=20
systems <BR>>like Windows will.<BR><BR>Big negative, with no =
offsetting=20
positive that benefits me. (I've already <BR>stated I don't use =
a PC for=20
anything that would require DRM)<BR><BR>- Bob Comer<BR><BR><BR>"Rich"=20
<@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:431112c7@w3.nls.net">news:431112c7@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&nbs=
p; =20
I'm guessing your repeated mac osx references is aluding to apple's=20
<BR>statements that they will support it only on apple systems =
combined with=20
the <BR>reports that the dev systems have TPMs and some osx software =
component=20
uses <BR>it. If so, that doesn't make a TPM a negative. It =
would=20
surely is a <BR>positive if you wanted to run osx and irrelevant if =
you=20
didn't. I think the <BR>negative to which you are trying to =
refer is=20
with osx which will not run on <BR>the large number of computers that =
other=20
operating systems like Windows <BR>will.<BR><BR>Rich<BR><BR> =
"Robert=20
Comer" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:bobcomer@mindspring.com">bobcomer@mindspring.com</A>> = wrote
in=20
message <BR><A=20
=
href=3D"news:4310dbd2@w3.nls.net">news:4310dbd2@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&nbs=
p; >=20
What are the negatives of having a TPM?<BR><BR> None at the =
moment,=20
unless you want to run OSX on a PC -- who knows about<BR> =
Windows and=20
other software in the future.<BR><BR> > Do you =
have or=20
have you seen a recent thinkpad with one?<BR><BR> No, we don't =
buy that=20
often.<BR><BR> >How about a recent toshiba =
laptop?<BR><BR> =20
Never buy those.<BR><BR> >Are these lesser devices because of =
it?<BR><BR> Yes, and I'll watch for it and plan=20
accordingly.<BR><BR> - Bob Comer<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> =
"Rich"=20
<@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:4310c98d@w3.nls.net">news:4310c98d@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&nbs=
p; =20
I disagree.<BR><BR> What are the negatives of =
having a=20
TPM?<BR><BR> Do you have or have you seen a =
recent=20
thinkpad with one? How about a<BR> recent toshiba =
laptop? =20
Are these lesser devices because of it?<BR><BR> =20
Rich<BR><BR> "Robert Comer" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:bobcomer@mindspring.com">bobcomer@mindspring.com</A>> = wrote
in=20
message<BR> <A=20
=
href=3D"news:4310c52a$1@w3.nls.net">news:4310c52a$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
=20
> You don't have to use a TPM even if your computer has =
one.<BR><BR> Right now, yes, but in the future, I =
doubt that=20
it's going to be <BR>optional.<BR> Look at the beta =
x86 OSX=20
-- it requires a specific TPM.<BR><BR> >If =
you just=20
want a smartcard you could have had one for =
years.<BR><BR> I=20
didn't say I wanted one, just that I maybe could live with in place=20
of<BR> TPM.<BR><BR> >A TPM =
builtin=20
provides other benefits.<BR><BR> And negatives as=20
well.<BR><BR> - Bob =
Comer<BR><BR><BR> =20
"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:4310abaa@w3.nls.net">news:4310abaa@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&nbs=
p; =20
You don't have to use a TPM even if your computer has one. If =
you=20
<BR>just<BR> want a smartcard you could have had one =
for=20
years. A TPM builtin <BR>provides<BR> other=20
benefits.<BR><BR> =
Rich<BR><BR> =20
"Robert Comer" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:bobcomer@mindspring.com">bobcomer@mindspring.com</A>> = wrote
in=20
message<BR> <A=20
=
href=3D"news:43108b95$1@w3.nls.net">news:43108b95$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
=20
> VT is =
virtualization.<BR><BR> =20
Yep, know that, it's my =
specialty.<BR><BR> =20
>LT is security. Neither is what george likes to call=20
DRM.<BR><BR> =20
True.<BR><BR> >What he tries to spin =
as=20
something sinister is the smart card =
like<BR> =20
>functionality (e.g. secure storage, hardware crypto) >provided =
by a=20
<BR>TPM<BR> =20
>chip.<BR><BR> That's the one I don't =
like. A smartcard idea I maybe could live=20
<BR>with,<BR> but<BR> =
it would=20
have to be both optional for the OS and machine, and=20
portable<BR> between machines. =
Like a key=20
basically, I carry it to whatever <BR>machine<BR> =20
I<BR> happen to be using it at the time, =
rather=20
than it being tied to a<BR> =
specific<BR> =20
piece of hardware, and you should have the ability to own more than=20
<BR>just<BR> one<BR> =20
key.<BR><BR> - Bob=20
Comer<BR><BR><BR> "Rich" <@> wrote =
in=20
message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:430ff6af@w3.nls.net">news:430ff6af@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&nbs=
p; =20
VT is virtualization. LT is security. Neither is what =
george=20
<BR>likes<BR> to<BR> call =
DRM. What=20
he tries to spin as something sinister is the smart=20
<BR>card<BR> like functionality (e.g. =
secure=20
storage, hardware crypto) provided by <BR>a<BR> =20
TPM<BR> =20
chip.<BR><BR> =20
Rich<BR><BR> "Robert Comer" =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:bobcomer@mindspring.com">bobcomer@mindspring.com</A>> = wrote
in=20
message<BR> <A=20
=
href=3D"news:430fdaf8$1@w3.nls.net">news:430fdaf8$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
=20
Yep, it looks like it's coming, probably not anything we can do=20
<BR>about<BR> it<BR> =
either --=20
it's for the masses to decide=20
about.<BR><BR> For now, no =
DRM media=20
stuff for me at all, I refuse to use it. I<BR> =20
don't<BR> =
do<BR> =20
any media other than broadcast TV on my PC. I'll probably get a=20
new<BR> processor soon, with =
VT,=20
dual or quad core, and yes, DRM, but that<BR> =20
doesn't<BR> mean I have to =
allow the=20
DRM part to make any difference to what I<BR> =
want<BR> =20
to<BR> =20
do.<BR><BR> Eventually there =
will=20
probably be some computer/OS company that=20
will<BR> =20
emerge<BR> to satisfy our =
computing=20
needs, but for entertainment, we're screwed<BR> =20
until<BR> everyone else =
catches up=20
and they revolt.<BR><BR> - =
Bob=20
Comer<BR><BR><BR><BR> "Geo" =
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>> wrote in =
message <BR><A=20
=
href=3D"news:430fbaa3$1@w3.nls.net">news:430fbaa3$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
=20
> All this DRM crap is nothing but a power grab so that=20
technology<BR> =20
companies<BR> > can =
enforce more=20
restrictions on how we use technology in order=20
to<BR> =20
extort<BR> > more money =
for the=20
same shit.<BR> =20
><BR> > Once it =
becomes=20
possible to prevent you from upgrading your OS<BR> =20
without<BR> > upgrading =
your=20
computer, or to prevent you from upgrading your<BR> =20
computer<BR> > without =
upgrading=20
your OS, do you really think Intel or MS will be<BR> =
able<BR> =20
to<BR> > resist the =
temptation?=20
Do you think a computer sold with windows<BR> =20
should<BR> > allow the =
user to=20
remove windows and install Linux cause I somehow<BR> =
think<BR> > that's the =
kind of=20
limitations we are headed =
for.<BR> =20
><BR> > Intel is going =
to have=20
to include that type of tech to make Apple<BR> =20
happy,<BR> > especially =
in light=20
of the recent news that OSX was running on non<BR> =20
Apple<BR> > PC's=20
already...<BR> =20
><BR> >=20
Geo.<BR> =20
><BR> > "Robert Comer" =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:bobcomer@mindspring.com">bobcomer@mindspring.com</A>> = wrote
in=20
message<BR> > <A=20
=
href=3D"news:430eed74@w3.nls.net">news:430eed74@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>&nbs=
p; =20
>> I don't know if any do yet, but they agreed to do drm =
hardware=20
<BR>for<BR> >=20
palladium<BR> >> just =
like=20
intel did.<BR> =20
>><BR> >> - Bob=20
Comer<BR> =20
><BR> =20
><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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