Text 3827, 214 rader
Skriven 2007-03-24 14:15:46 av Roy Witt (1:123/789.0)
Kommentar till en text av Bob Klahn
Ärende: Business Logic 101
==========================
"Bob Klahn -> Roy Witt" <1:275/311> wrote in message
news:20443$POL_INC@JamNNTPd...
BK> ..
RW>>>> the refineries shut down for their annual formula change
RW>>>> from winter to spring, it creates a shortage. Which is what
BK>>> Which is of doubtful honesty. There is no good reason for enough
BK>>> refineries to shut down enough production at one time to cause
BK>>> any shortage.
RW>> California's Air Resources Board requires a gasoline
RW>> formula change in the spring and fall, throughout the
BK> Do they require all refineries to shut down at the same time?
I'm not sure about that. There is a great increase in price twice a year, then
it levels out until the next formula change.
BK> I didn't argue about the formula change. I do believe that happens
BK> all over the country. Maybe not as much of a change.
It happens here too.
RW>> state. Plus their exhorbitant taxes on a gallon of gas
RW>> drives up the price. Last I checked, California gasoline
RW>> prices were $1.30 more than they are here in Texas.
BK> State taxes are another matter. And that has nothing to do with
BK> the rest of the arguement that I can see.
CA State taxes on gasoline are nearly twice as high as they are here.
BK> Oh, and that's probably as good a way to cut automobile usage as any.
LOL! You've never been to California, have you. San Diego has a Bus & Trolly
service, where the LA basin has none. SF has the Bay Area Rapid Transit. That's
a trolly system that runs from south of SF, across the bay via tunnel to
Oakland
and then down to Fremont. It hasn't done very much to curb the use of cars. If
you need to travel across town to work in LA, you better count on 3 hours on
the
freeways there, one way. San Diego has a trolly system too, and it's helped
quite a bit, if you live in the subs and work downtown. Freeways are still
jammed up and you're having a good day if you can go faster than 20mph.
RW>>>> you're seeing now. If it weren't for state laws requiring
RW>>>> refiners to comply with emissions from their plants, they'd
BK>>> Those are mostly federal laws, not state.
RW>> Not in California. California's Air Resources Board is the
RW>> model used to create the EPA's laws that the other 49 must
RW>> adhere too.
BK> So california is a special case. I live in Ohio.
Ohio adheres to the federal EPA rules, adopted from the California model, aka
CARB.
RW>>>> build more refineries, but when the epa and states demand
RW>>>> compliance no matter what, why should they?
BK>>> Because they don't make a profit if they don't sell petroleum
BK>>> products. They just figure in the cost of compliance. As long as
BK>>> all producers have to meet the same standards there's no problem
BK>>> with adjusting prices to compensate.
RW>> That's the dig. All producers don't have to be in
RW>> compliance with CARB's standards.
BK> Which does not affect the competitive position in California.
That would depend on where they refine comes from.
BK> As long as all the producers selling in California have to meet the
BK> same standards, there is no competitive disadvantage.
Except for the cost of their materials.
There are oil wells in CA, but it is high in sulpher.
Which requires more refining.
RW>> Texas, AFAIK, doesn't add
RW>> MTBE to gasoline here. But they still do in
RW>> California. Even though MTBE is known to contaminate ground
RW>> water, CARB still requires it to be used.
BK> Like I said, so california is a special case.
I believe that was my point in the beginning of this discussion.
RW>>>> Oil refineries in California can't be built because of the
RW>>>> state pollution laws are worse than what the EPA mandates.
RW>>>> So they're stuck with the old refineries and there hasn't
RW>>>> been a new one built in decades there.
BK>>> So build one next door.
RW>> Gasoline from boardering states isn't allowed to be sold in
RW>> California. It doesn't meet their stricter standards.
BK> Meet the standards. They can require the standards, they can't
BK> prevent interstate trade.
Trade and import duties would make the foriegn products cost even more.
BK> Again, that does not change the competitive position between oil
BK> companies.
See above.
BK>>> And how many of the old ones have they shut down? There hasn't
actuall
RW>> been any increase in the number
BK>>> of refineries in a long time. It's all been improved efficiency.
RW>> Like hell. Again, CARB regulates every envioronmental
RW>> emmision in California. The existing refineries have to
RW>> comply with tighter regulations, which drives efficency
RW>> down.
BK> It may make them more expensive to run, doesn't stop them from
BK> producing more gasoline. There are compromises to everything.
BK> Compete and let the chips fall where they may.
Uh huh...and then the consumer picks up the tab, which is why California has
the
highest fuel prices west of the Mississippi...
DC>>>>> BTW, I'm not sure if it still holds now, but a study I made a
DC>>>>> while back showed a close correlation of gas prices in regard
DC>>>>> to whether a state was a Red or Blue state.
RW>>>> That's ludricrous. California is a Blue state and has the
RW>>>> highest gas prices in
RW>>>> all of the western states. They don't buy their oil from
RW>>>> the same source as say;
RW>>>> Louisiana, which is a Blue state and their gas prices are
RW>>>> commenserate with Texas prices, a red state. California
BK>>> Which doesn't mean there isn't an overall correlation. The oil
BK>>> industry would tend to take care of the states that are in their
BK>>> pocket, like those with major oil investment. Like Texas and
BK>>> Louisiana.
RW>> They're not necessarily in anyones pocket. Tx and La have
BK> Yeah, they are. As per your next lines.
What I say doesn't equate to any governmental pockets...
RW>> less restrictive enviornmental laws, compared to the overly
RW>> restrictive laws of California. Everyone must comply with
RW>> the Federal EPA requirments.
BK> And Texas is famous as a sewer of polution.
LOL! Said the person who's never been to the state, let alone know what he's
talking about. If there's air pollution here, I've never seen it. San Antonio
is
20 miles down the road and I go there often...my daughter lives in Houston and
I've never seen any air pollution when we visit there. I've passed through
Dallas/FtWorth many times on the way to Chicago, no pollution there. There is
pollution in El Paso, but it comes from south of the border, where there is no
EPA to control it. Fortunately, the westward winds come across the Mexican
desert from the Pacific, thus California's pollution goes toward Ohio, not
Texas.
RW>>>> could alleviate their high prices by allowing oil companies
RW>>>> to drill offshore, but that won't happen as long as it's a
RW>>>> blue state.
BK>>> Or could they? Well, if they were in the pocket of the oil
BK>>> industry, maybe.
RW>> Whacko lefties is the real reason. Environmentalists
RW>> whackos makes the entire state pay the price.
BK> If the problem is the refineries, drilling off shore won't
BK> change that.
It certainly would. California imports from everywhere, but doesn't have that
much of their own like LA and TX do. They could get better service from the
Alaskan pipeline, if only the environmentalists would allow the pipe to flow
more oil. Of course they'd also have to allow drilling in Alaska too.
RW>> A friend of mine told me the other day that the city of San
RW>> Diego, which btw is on the verge of bankruptcy, has
RW>> increased the price of water service over and above that
RW>> which they gouged people with when I lived there. So, in
RW>> comparison to the oil companies, how does the 'water
RW>> company', which is a government run entity, get away with
RW>> gouging people at the faucet?
BK> I am not familiar with what the city of San Diego is doing, what
BK> their costs are, and what their prices are. So I couldn't say.
I just told you, so now you know. There are several sources online, the San
Diego Tribune, KGTV, KFMB, etc...
BK> So vote out the city officials.
It doesn't seem to change the way things are done there. They're all crooks it
seems and the mess left by those vote out is too big to clean up.
--
The trouble with our liberal friends is not
that they are ignorant, but that they know
so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan
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