Text 13378, 135 rader
Skriven 2008-03-22 18:29:32 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 13372 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Thought crime...again
=============================
Hello Michiel.

22 Mar 08 20:49, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Saturday March 22 2008 12:23, you wrote to Björn Forsström:

 JS>>     Hypothetically, if a 40 year old male chooses to come to the
 JS>> US to have sex with the minor child. That is a crime here.
 JS>> Regardless of where that person may come from.

 MV> Hypothetically - or may be not so hypothetically - if someone - law
 MV> enforcement officer or citizen - provokes somone to commit a crime
 MV> that is a crime in itself. Regardless of where that person may come
 MV> from.

     That's the key to your argument. I submit that you are assuming that
the US LEO's are automatically quilty of provoking people to comit crimes
and therefore imposing US laws upon those of other countries.

     There is no entrapment if the LEO's simply provide the opportunity and
the person is already inclined and willing to comit a crime and the LEO's
merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to
commit the crime. An example, it is not entrapment for a LEO to pretend to be
someone else and to provide an opportunity to someone. That someone would not
be a victim of entrapment if that someone was ready, willing and able to
commit the crime whenever the opportunity was afforded them, and that the LEO's
id no more than offer an opportunity.

     On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the
person had any prexisting intent or inclination to commit the crime except for
inducement or persuasion on the part of a LEO, then the person is not guilty
and the LEO would be quilty of entrapment.

     Stated in a differant way. Even though someone may have say taken or sold
drugs in the past, if the commiting of a crime was the result of entrapment
then that someone is not guilty. LEO's may have entrapped him if three things
happened.

   First, the idea for committing the crime came from the LEO's and not from
the person accused of the crime.

   Second, the LEO's persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime.
Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as
persuading someone to commit the crime.

   Third, the person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the
LEO's provided the opportunity.


 MV> Here, if a LEO offers his 14 yo daughter in order to attempt to make
 MV> someone commit a crime. it would be the LEO that would end up in
 MV> prison.

     I am thinking (Or at least hope) that a LEO wouldn't be offering their
14 year old daughter to get anyone to do anything related to what we are
discussing. <g>

 JS>>     But thats the problem Björn. An act that you don't consider a
 JS>> crime there IS a crime here. Again making an assumption, if he
 JS>> had stayed in Sweden he wouldn't have been arrested.

 MV> If the cop had not offered his 14yo daughter as bait, he would not
 MV> have come to the US. Entrapment...

     Very possibly true. But the LEO by pretending to be a teenage girl
provided the opportunity for the man to act out his prexisting intent and
desires to have sex with a minor. The man made the decision to come to
the US to comit the crime.


 JS>>     Some may think that the US in enforcing it's laws is trying
 JS>> to force our laws on other countries.

 MV> Not only do I think that. I know it. That method of law enforcement is
 MV> illegal here. The plain fact that US law enforcement ignores that and
 MV> applies their methods to residents of another country residing in that
 MV> country, shows that they *are* trying to enforce their laws on other
 MV> countries.

     US laws apply when people travel to the US to comit their intended
crime. Are the people being arrested on say Swedish soil for commiting
a US crime?


 JS>>     It's not a matter of the US trying to force it's laws on "The
 JS>> world".

 MV> It is.

     It is for those that are predisposed to see it that way. Especially
those that already have a pre-existing disposition against the US. Those
people are unlikely to see it any other way.


 JS>>  It is a matter of the US trying to enforce it's laws on crimes
 JS>> commited in this country against our children.

 MV> Then why do they approach citizens of other countries residing in
 MV> those other countries? They have not done anything in your country yet
 MV> have they? So why are they approached at all?

    If the LEO's were to target specific people or groups of people then I
would agree that that was wrong. But if the LEO's make the same opportunity
available to anyone regardless of their nationality I don't see that as
approaching someone.

 JS>> protect those children it is a crime here to attempt or conspire
 JS>> to have sex with a minor here.

 MV> The man from Sweden was not "here" when he was contacted by the cop.

    Here either I would think. <g>

 JS>>      For taking steps to further protect our children from being
 JS>> exploited, raped, abused, kidnapped?

 MV> What you do on you own territory to your own people is your business.
 MV> But you have no bussines messing with people residing on the territory
 MV> of another country. And that is what happened.

     When they travel to the US to act out their desires and the result of
which is a crime here. They are likely to be arrested for breaking a US
law on US soil.

 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)