Text 13238, 187 rader
Skriven 2014-03-28 17:54:00 av Bill McGarrity (5571.2fidonews)
Kommentar till text 13199 av alexander koryagin (2:5020/2140.2)
Ärende: Re: War
===============
-=> alexander koryagin wrote to Bill McGarrity <=-
Hiya Alexander...
ak> I read your message from 26.03.2014 17:09
ak> about Re: War.
ak>> Well, suppose, the history repeated itself once more, and the
ak>> Ukraine (before the 2014 events) has gifted the Crimea to Turkey,
ak>> as a sign of friendship etc. According to your logic the people of
ak>> Crimea must consider themselves Turks? Am I right?
BM> Depending on the amount of generations that were seen during the
BM> initial gifting and the time of annexation is the issue. Naturally,
BM> those who were born in Crimea after the "gifting" would be
BM> considered Turkish citizens of Crimean descent. Just as I am 2nd
BM> generation here in the US but am of Irish Descent. I was born here
BM> and consider myself as a citizen of the US but effectively, my
BM> motherland is Ireland. Same theory.
ak> You forgot or may be you don't know what happened in the Crimea and
ak> Sevastopol during WW2 and earlier wars. The Crimea has always been the
ak> place of Russian military honor. The defense of Sevastopol in 1941-1942
ak> can be compared only with the defense of Leningrad. Russian people in
ak> the Crimea simply cannot forget who they are, and where they are
ak> living. Well, its like a Holy place for Russians. That's why so many
ak> Russians support the Crimean events.
I can understand Sevastopol can be considered the Russian Valey Forge but the
fact still remains, Crimea was given to Ukraine and as such, those living in
Crimea since that time are considered Ukrainians of Russian descent, at least
those who were born in the past 50 years.
ak> When the USSR existed the problem was dimmed, because all the USSR
ak> states were as a whole country, and they tried to think that "Soviet"
ak> is their nationality.
Which the rest of the world considered the Eastern Bloc countries. There were
no nationalities so to speak of. I get that.
ak> <skipped>
ak>> Why didn't you not tell it Albanians living in Serbia? They should
ak>> consider themselves Serbs, too. ;-)
BM> Again, if they've lived in Serbia for over 3 genrations then their
BM> country is Serbia, but alas, we both know that's not the case since
BM> the split occured in 1991. The initial creation of Yugoslavia after
BM> WWI should have never occured and IMO. A minimum of three separate
BM> countries should have been established.
ak> Yugoslavia is much older than you think. But even taking your
ak> numbers, Kosovo's Albanians lived in Kocovo longer than Russian
ak> Crimeans into the Ukraine. Albanians certainly must feel themselves
ak> Serbs, according your doctrine.
The area has been there a long time but the essence of it being called
Yugoslavia is less than a century. Funny how political unrest caused the all
those little surfdoms to come under one roof, albiet a kingdom. The basic issue
is if the inbred fighting during WWII had ceased and smarter minds would have
thought the possibility of splitting the area into separate countries, I doubt
very much what went on in the mid 90's would have occured. But who knows,
religion has been the cause of many problems throughout history.
ak> <skipped>
BM> The fact that Yanukovich was in exile would normally support he was
BM> no longer in control and the new government was.
ak> Well, do you know how long the Polish Government existed in London
ak> after 1939?
The Polish governtment was forced out due to the Axis invasion, not an internal
issue. Two completely different situations.
BM> I'm not saying the perceived actions in Kiev were right but things
BM> do work in mysterious ways in Europe at times. The term you used as
BM> Crimea was gifted can be taken within the realm of symantics. From
BM> 1954 to 1991 I would say yes, to a point being the Ukraine was
BM> still part of the Soviet Union. After 1991, then all bets were off
BM> as then became part of independent Ukraine. In researching, I feel
BM> as if it was the Russian Federation that were gifted Sevastopol in
BM> 1997's treaty, not the other way around.
ak> Russian politicians really give up the Crimea and recognized it as
ak> a part of the Ukraine. This status-quo would exist indefinably unless
ak> the Crimean people decided to take their destiny by themselves.
The key word you used is "give up". Once they let the Ukraine become
responsible for Crimea, which in a way they still do even after the election,
Russia had no business there until 1997 when the treaty was signed over
Sevastopol granting a "special city" title. Let's look at this in a different
perspective. The Ukrainians decided to walk into Sevastopol and state they now
annexed the city. What then? The fact still remains Russia and the Ukraine
had an agreement over Crimea. As I stated previously, IF those living in
Crimea wanted to secceed, which I ahve no issue with btw, it should have been
done according to the laws which were agreed upon initially.
BM>> Could the reasoning be the "militia" you speak of were trained on
BM>> Russian soil for just this purpose and when thinking in hindsight,
BM>> those on the Ukraine bases kept level heads rather than starting
BM>> an all out war? Putin took a gamble along with the rest of the
BM>> politico knowing with the unrest in Ukraine proper it would be the
BM>> perfect coverup for reacclimation. It succeeded, but I'm sure he's
BM>> walking on eggshells when it comes to Eastern Ukraine if he thinks
BM>> he'll be able to duplicate his success there.
ak>> As for me, I believe, that nobody in the world could foresee that
ak>> the things would go on in such a way. All the things that Maidan
ak>> opposition did were foolish, crazy, unprofessional and destroying.
ak>> They themselves did not understand what could happen and what a
ak>> gin appeared from the lamp.
BM> You're exactly right but as I stated above, the way it happened
BM> seems to be the status quo in the eastern bloc of Europe. Things
BM> just explode. As an independent country, the Ukraine had a right to
BM> determine its own destiny without interference by Putin.
ak> Putin has got in such a situation that he just cannot betray
ak> Russian people once more and pretend that he doesn't see the events in
ak> the Crimea. But Putin was a passive participant of the events. The
ak> active force was the people living in the Crimea. It is not Putin's
ak> merit.
By staying clear until the situation in Kiev resolved itself, both he and those
in Crimea that wanted to secceed probably would have had no resitance from the
rest of the world. According to the documents signed by both Russia and the
Ukraine, Crimea was part of the Ukraine. There is no discussion over that. By
allowing Russian state influence it changed the playing field.
BM> If after the dust settled, Crimea wanted to hold an election
BM> observed by neutral parties, then I don't think anyone in the world
BM> would have an issue with that.
ak> The new power in Kiev has already made the statement that the
ak> Crimea is an inseparable part of the Ukraine. So, people in the Crimea
ak> had nothing to wait for. Well, it is very logical -- it is a rule that
ak> every country doesn't like separatists.
Agreed, but as I stated above, things can be done in a responsible manner.
What if one of either the Russian trained forces or the Ukrainian forces opened
fire at each other?
BM> Throwing petrol on a fire and expecting it to extingish is what was
BM> done in Crimea. Will it eventually go out, sure it will but why not
BM> let it simmer rather than turning the world upside down.
ak> You forgot where the petrol bombs were being thrown in reality. The
ak> things started when the opposition turned upside down their own
ak> country, which was not a firm, monolithic state.
Oh, I understand that and as I previously stated, things could have been
handled better in Kiev but the fact still remains, Crimea was a forced issue as
the dust in Kiev had yet to settle. The seccession was, for the lack of a
better term, done under the cover of darkness.
BM> Those in Crimea who thought annexation by Russia was a good idea
BM> better understand their everyday lives still rest within those in
BM> the north. Electric and water are necessities and although I doubt
BM> they will sever those utilties totally, it's certaining going to
BM> have a harsh effect till Russia builds an inferstructure.
ak> Actually, money relations and common sense will help. The Ukraine
ak> needs eastern market to trade with. As for sanctions -- it is a very
ak> bad idea for the Ukraine to damage its own eastern market. The more
ak> normal the relations will be, the profitable it will for the Ukraine.
Oh, I wasn't talking about eastern Ukraine, my focus was strictly on Crimea,
although the Ukraine needs both eastern and western markets to see their
potential. I understand tensions run high between the east and the west and
each side wants there own way but a mutual concession must be made or this is,
sadly, just the beginning.
Be well...
Bill
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